D&D 5E An issue with the Tavern Brawler feat

[BryonD]

Since you don't follow through with the specific language, allow me to expand.

Do you, as the DM, allow, if you judge a thing to be "close enough", just about anyone to use that thing exactly like a weapon (such as the greatclub) including proficiency bonus if proficient?

Because if so, that is the problem.

The example provided is a table leg as a club. Seems pretty clear.
I would not allow a dead goblin to be "close enough" to a great club.

If, on the other hand, you still don't allow the proficiency bonus even when you rule the thing is close enough to the real weapon, unless the person is a tavern brawler and has the proficiency, then we're good.

The table leg club would have the "light" quality for anyone proficient in simple weapons (or clubs).


As to proficiency, there is a third camp you didn't offer.

Lets say the fight is in a giant's kitchen. There is a giant's meat cleaver handy and, for sake of conversation, the DM does agree it is "close enough" to a Great Axe.
The party rogue (not proficient and no feat) grabs it and swings. It is an improvised weapon. No prof bonus, standard improvised weapon damage. (one could argue better damage for this example, but that is a completely seperate conversation). The fact that it is "close enough" to a great axe is meaningless to him.
The party wizard (not proficient, but has tavern brawler) grabs it and swings. He adds his prof bonus, but still does standard improvised weapon damage. Again, the fact that it is "close enough" is meaningless to him.
The party fighter (proficient in Great Axe, no feat) grabs it and uses profic bonus to attacks and does great axe (1d12) damage. This is because, as stated on page 147, he is proficient with Great Axe and is using a simialr weapon "as if it were that weapon".

Note that "proficient with a weapon" <> "proficient with the similar object".

 

[Minigiant]

Tavern brawler lets you add your proficiency bonus to any item you use as an improvised weapon. It's up to the DM on how much damage your deal, what types, and what properties you get.

A mage with tarvern brawler wizard can attack with a greasword with prof bonus to the attack. It is up to the DM on whether it acts like a greatclub and deal 1d8 or deal 1d4 damage.

 

[CapnZapp]

Here we go again. As I've said a few times, the language of the improvised weapon rules strongly implies (to me) that an object that is used as a weapon does not automatically grant proficiency in it (even though they do not explicitly say so).

Specifically, the text reads that such an object "can be treated as" the weapon. If that weapon is one that the weilder is not proficient in, the logical inferrence is that the improvised weapon (and, yes, the rules still imply that such an object still is) is not intended to grant a proficiency bonus to someone who isn't proficient with the weapon being resembled.

This is really the crux of the entire issue. All of the other arguments going on in this thread are incidental, because, if the improv weapons rules do not grant automatic proficiency, their mechanical significance goes away.

Even if (in my head at least) it makes no narrative sense that a greatsword could be used as a greatclub (because physics), the mechanics of the game don't care, because the character isn't getting any free bonuses; the only thing gained is the ability to effectively not be without a weapon with which s/he is proficient.

Tavern brawler doesn't care because it resets the damage to 1d4, even if a weapon is being improvised as another weapon (specific beats general). Sure you're proficient at everything. At 1d4.

You solve one problem but create another.

Obviously you would want to be able to do more than d4 damage with improvised weapons as a tavern brawler. It's not unbalanced, provided you don't gain proficiencies you don't already have.

The feat screams for cool and inventive solutions that allow you to use d4 clubs and daggers (with keywords) and d8 greatclubs at the very least. I would probably allow 2d6 mauls as well in especially grand cases!

So it's great that you're with me on the "not granting wizards longsword proficiency" issue. But you still need to read the rule in a way that allows tavern brawlers to use things like actual greatclubs without entitling everybody else to automatically do so to

Cheers,

 

[CapnZapp]

Tavern brawler lets you add your proficiency bonus to any item you use as an improvised weapon. It's up to the DM on how much damage your deal, what types, and what proficiencies you get.

A mage with tarvern brawler wizard can attack with a greasword with prof bonus to the attack. It is up to the DM on whether it acts like a greatclub and deal 1d8 or deal 1d4 damage.

Exactly.

And it is when you the DM rules it acts like a d4 for the wizard (but like a d8 for the cleric and a d12 for the fighter) the rule and the feat truly starts to shine!

 

[BryonD]

A mage with tarvern brawler wizard can attack with a greasword with prof bonus to the attack. It is up to the DM on whether it acts like a greatclub and deal 1d8 or deal 1d4 damage.

I don't think this is at all the intent. Attacking with a greatsword is attacking with a greatsword.

 

[Iosue]

I don't think this is at all the intent. Attacking with a greatsword is attacking with a greatsword.

Yes, but there's no reason why someone who could skillfully utilize a beer mug as a weapon couldn't also utilize a greatsword as one. They just can't use it skillfully as a greatsword. Thus, add prof. bonus, do 1d4 damage.

 

[BryonD]

Yes, but there's no reason why someone who could skillfully utilize a beer mug as a weapon couldn't also utilize a greatsword as one. They just can't use it skillfully as a greatsword. Thus, add prof. bonus, do 1d4 damage.

I can live with that. But, again, when looking for INTENT they are clearly describing non-weapons or weapons used not as intended. (melee with a Bow, etc)

 

[Timotheos55000]

Uh, per my reading of the 'weapon proficiency' entry on page 146 of the PHB, no where does it state that a PC unproficient in a weapon cant use said weapon at it's full damage dice. The attack roll just does not benefit from the character's proficiency bonus. Congrats, that wizard can wield that great club at it's full d8.

 

[Minigiant]

I can live with that. But, again, when looking for INTENT they are clearly describing non-weapons or weapons used not as intended. (melee with a Bow, etc)

I believe the INTENT is to make the tavern Brawler feat let PCs attack with chairs without taking the disadvantage of no prof bonus due to not being proficient.

Tavern Brawler:

• Increases your STR or CON by 1
• Lets you add your proficiency bonus to attack rolls with unarmed strikes
• Lets you add your proficiency bonus to attack rolls with improvised weapons
• Makes your unarmed strikes use 1d4 for damage
• Lets you grapple as a bonus action if you hit with a unarmed stike or an improvised weapon

Your DM always controlled how much damaged your improvised weapons did. The point of the feat is to let you have a chance to hit with them.

 

[BryonD]

Agreed. But I think this thread has merged conversation of intent for TB with Intent for Improved Weapons in general.