Anyone picked up True Sorcery?

[iwatt]

Maybe we just all feel that the whole Enworld community needs to hear the gospel of Iron Heroes?

Praise the Mearls and his lord Monte....

 

[zaffudo]

First, the way to get that thread going again is to post in it.

I check it on a regular basis, but nobody ever raises anything for discussion over there. Maybe we just all feel that the whole Enworld community needs to hear the gospel of Iron Heroes? Or maybe not... :\

I posted a concern I have with Slay which got a response, but after I replied to that response with a few more concerns I got nothing, so I assumed it wasn’t really getting read. Maybe 6 pages is a bit intimidating, I dunno.

As a topic of more general discussion, Valhalla’s house rule proposal of casting any spell, but with an increased DC if you don’t actually know it.

Looking at what my 10th level Arcanist can do with Dabbler feats like Protection that he doesn’t know, I think the +10 to DC for Dabbler stuff isn’t enough. Even with a base DC of 15 instead of 5, he can do so much useful stuff with them that it gives him nearly no incentive to take those spells at all.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Go back to the IH board, it's been covered in some detail. Plus, this thread is supposed to be for more general RPG usage.

I see. So the page-long discussion on arcanists in IH campaigns right above me is "general RPG usage" as opposed to the piece of errata for the document itself that I requested?

 

[ValhallaGH]

*shoves thread back to general use*

Slay is very powerful. Probably too powerful, since it's a better option than your other major combat spells.

Pretend you're trying to slay a Battle Titan (basically a 28 HD T-Rex trained as a war mount from MM III) then you'll need to have a powerful enough slay spell to affect 28 HD of creature. For a meaningful amount of damage (say, 15d6) that's a DC 149 spell that you have to deliver from 10 feet away (AoO!). If you'd rather not get eaten while casting it, then you'll need some extra range too; another 40 feet should suffice for a final DC of 153 to either kill the BT or deal 15d6 of damage.
On the other hand, you can get a 30d6 Create Energy spell from 50 feet away (changed from burst to target, so the same ranged touch attack) for a DC of 165.

That's just too good. Not only does it have the same effect on a successful save but it has better effect on a failed save, is not mitigated by energy resistances and is 60% easier to cast.

+2 per hit die seems too low to me. If someone can explain how this isn't an issue then I will be very impressed.

 

[iwatt]

Slay is very powerful. Probably too powerful, since it's a better option than your other major combat spells.

Well, the power words always were better than a fireball, and it's those spells it's trying to emulate. For an IH game I agree that it's too powerful. In any case, it really isn't too consistent with 3.5 which replaced save or die with save or massive damage (double dice per level). Check out desintegrate.

 

[Banshee16]

*shoves thread back to general use*

Slay is very powerful. Probably too powerful, since it's a better option than your other major combat spells.

Pretend you're trying to slay a Battle Titan (basically a 28 HD T-Rex trained as a war mount from MM III) then you'll need to have a powerful enough slay spell to affect 28 HD of creature. For a meaningful amount of damage (say, 15d6) that's a DC 149 spell that you have to deliver from 10 feet away (AoO!). If you'd rather not get eaten while casting it, then you'll need some extra range too; another 40 feet should suffice for a final DC of 153 to either kill the BT or deal 15d6 of damage.
On the other hand, you can get a 30d6 Create Energy spell from 50 feet away (changed from burst to target, so the same ranged touch attack) for a DC of 165.

That's just too good. Not only does it have the same effect on a successful save but it has better effect on a failed save, is not mitigated by energy resistances and is 60% easier to cast.

+2 per hit die seems too low to me. If someone can explain how this isn't an issue then I will be very impressed.

It's a spell devoted to slaying, and focused on one opponent, right? Whereas Create Energy could effectively create a fireball couldn't it, and hence affect multiple opponents? Death magic has always tended to be the most powerful, when used against single opponents....

Banshee

 

[ValhallaGH]

Both of those spell builds are single target spells that require ranged touch attacks and allow saving throws. Both can be augmented to include large areas and affect multiple targets.

Which one is better?

 

[Alkiera]

Both of those spell builds are single target spells that require ranged touch attacks and allow saving throws. Both can be augmented to include large areas and affect multiple targets.

Which one is better?

Not only does it have the same effect on a successful save but it has better effect on a failed save, is not mitigated by energy resistances and is 60% easier to cast.

You also have to account for the beast having a much higher fort save than reflex save. The Colossus of Thard isn't quite as tough, (25HD), but has a +29 Fort, and +16 Ref. That's a big difference. A 20th level caster's spell will have DC of ~25... Meaning Slay is basically a guaranteed save, wheras the Create Energy is only a 45% chance.

Nevermind that the odds of getting either spell off in combat are pretty small. lvl 20 Spellcaster has 23 ranks in spellcraft, +32 (4th magnitude), +5(casting stat), +3 (skill focus) = +68 Spellcraft mod, compared to DC 154 = (86) casting time of 20 minutes. You might be able to pump enough spell energy/mana into it to actually succeed at casting; 4th mage has 8+con mod energy points, call it 10... Spend 8, it's almost a garaunteed cast. However, that 15d6 Slay is gonna be doing 9d8+30 back at you, and you're down to 2 energy worth of DR. Call the averages, it'll take ~53 damage, you'll take ~78 subdual(out of roughly 110 hp).

Not a good tradeoff for makeing your friends run around in a circle with the thing for 20 minutes while you wave your arms.

Instead, consider using Create Energy to toss two 8d6 fireballs every round, (DC ~60, so you can cast one as a swift action, and another as a standard action), Say this enemy has a 50/50 chance to save, so say it saves half the time, taking an average 12d6(42 dmg) per round. You take 1d8+12(-10 for energy/mana DR, so 1d8+2) subdual for each casting. Even if it has DR vs. your energy type, as long as it's not immune, it's likely to be taking damage faster than you, which is more than can be said for your example.

Now which spell is better?
--
Alkiera

 

[hong]

Well, the power words always were better than a fireball, and it's those spells it's trying to emulate. For an IH game I agree that it's too powerful. In any case, it really isn't too consistent with 3.5 which replaced save or die with save or massive damage (double dice per level). Check out desintegrate.

Well, to be precise it replaced save-or-die with damage dice, for _one_ spell, ie disintegrate. Everything else is still save-or-die: finger of death, slay living, destruction, etc.

 

[Gilwen]

This book sounds great. Is the whole thing OGC or are some parts restricted from reuse?

Gil