Balance: Gestalt Characters vs. Non-gestalts

[Slaved]

Looking at wildstarsreach suggestion....

gestalt Fighter 5/Wizard 5
point buy 25: Strength 15, Dexterity 14, Constitution 14, Intelligence 14, Wisdom 9, Charisma 8
Hit dice: 5d10 (10+4x6+10=44)
Base attack: +5
Saves: fortitude +6, reflex +3, willpower +3
Wizard 5th level casting
3 fighter bonus feats

Fighter 6
point buy 31: Strength 16, Dexterity 14, Constitution 14, Intelligence 14, Wisdom 12, Charisma 8
Hit dice: 6d10 (10+5x6+12=52)
Base attack: +6
Saves: fortitude +7, reflex +4, willpower +3
4 fighter bonus feats
1 extra bonus feat
6 extra skill points

I probably did not do the attributes very well though. I am sure others could make them fit to specific goals better.

If these are ok though, how do they look to other people? Ignoring that the second guy has an extra attack on a full attack does one look too far ahead of the other?

 

[wildstarsreach]

Not to brag, but I made that suggestion, which went unnoticed (I thought) I have also thought up a more simple version of that as well, which is make them half the level as the party. So:

Normal/Gestalt
2/1
4/2
6/3
8/4

Ect ect...

My reasoning for this is that a Gestalt Sorc3/monk3 is as good as sixth level monk. Tons of cool abilities and top notch saves/Good BAB for half the hit points is equal to full sixth level hp, saves/BAB and just the Monk class abilites.

Just apply Exp modifiers to gestalt and let em go.

---Rusty

The problem is that you are not twice the character at each level. You get the best of each class and not both classes added together. A first level Gestalt is maybe 130% of a standard character and will probably be that way through most of the game. A double spellcaster will be about 150% of the single classed character. He has a lot more gas but can still only cast one spell a round.

 

[wildstarsreach]

Looking at wildstarsreach suggestion....

gestalt Fighter 5/Wizard 5
point buy 25: Strength 15, Dexterity 14, Constitution 14, Intelligence 14, Wisdom 9, Charisma 8
Hit dice: 5d10 (10+4x6+10=44)
Base attack: +5
Saves: fortitude +6, reflex +3, willpower +3
Wizard 5th level casting
3 fighter bonus feats

Fighter 6
point buy 31: Strength 16, Dexterity 14, Constitution 14, Intelligence 14, Wisdom 12, Charisma 8
Hit dice: 6d10 (10+5x6+12=52)
Base attack: +6
Saves: fortitude +7, reflex +4, willpower +3
4 fighter bonus feats
1 extra bonus feat
6 extra skill points

I probably did not do the attributes very well though. I am sure others could make them fit to specific goals better.

If these are ok though, how do they look to other people? Ignoring that the second guy has an extra attack on a full attack does one look too far ahead of the other?

Pretty good over all. Let us say if the took a 1/2 giant instead of the extra feat. Look at the possibilities.

I played a Cerebramance from 1-20. I was weaker on the lower levels but about 11th was where I was equal and at 16th and beyond I was on the upper end about 20-30% stronger and could out last most of the party. A Mystic Thurge/Cerebremancer boarder what it is to have a gestalt character. It doesn't make you twice as powerful but gives you many more options and more staying power. It overall increases your characters power from 100 to 125 to 150% of a standard character.

Would a drow full LA +2 wizard/sorcerer be equitable to a wizard/rogue across most levels. I would say yes with the gestalt still being stronger but not overwhelmingly so.

 

[Nifft]

Last time we discussed this, I think LA +2 was the consensus price for Gestalt over regular.

It's unstable around ECL 3 and ECL 20, but so do most things. Starting at ECL 5 and ending around ECL 15 it seems fairly stable.

Cheers, -- N

 

[lamproswc]

One thing you might do is say Gestalt characters can't multiclass and are limited in their ability to select non-core feats. This is a significant limitation, but more importantly it reduces headaches considerably.

I'd also start out the non gestalt characters with a ECL+2 race for free. I think Gestalts can be pretty powerful at lower levels, when resources are scarce. As they level up, you should give them additional advantages - maybe they get magical gear that's a few levels higher than what they're entitled to, although I imagine this gets a little messy. The question is, why will some people be playing non-gestalts? Do they not like the variant?

 

[DungeonMaester]

I told my players that they ha the option of Gestalt at half the level if they wanted that option. Two took it, two other played straight characters.

Please explain. A Gestalt Sor3//Mnk3 is absolutely not as strong as a multi-class Sor3/Mnk3. (this is simple math)]

Lets see. A Gestalt would take a monk's HD BAB and saves. With out doing all the math a CC Monk/Sorc would have about the same of as a Monk4..Since the the Sorc progression is nothing to write home to.

Spells..Equal...

HP...3D4+Con

Feats: Goes to the Gestalt. At 3/3 they qualify for 6th level feats while the CC has to gain the levels.

Skills: Toss up.

Feats played a big part in the game, Taking Powerful Build (And having Imp. grapple and Imp. Int) to deliver fun with ease. While the Cross Class is stuck building up. All they lose out on is some hp.

Neither is a Gestalt Sor3//Mnk3 as strong as either a Sor6 or Mnk6. (IMHO)

Ive never seen a Sorc6 stand up to a plain old Monk3. Ever.

A 1/2 level penalty severely under balances Gestalt.

I find it odd that people are complaining about a Optional rule, although the players who have taken it love it. (Monk/Paladin and a Sorc/Bard.

The problem is that you are not twice the character at each level. You get the best of each class and not both classes added together. A first level Gestalt is maybe 130% of a standard character and will probably be that way through most of the game. A double spellcaster will be about 150% of the single classed character. He has a lot more gas but can still only cast one spell a round.

It depends on the Gestalt. While not all Gestalt are created equal, some easily tear apart things twice there level.

 

[Rystil Arden]

I told my players that they ha the option of Gestalt at half the level if they wanted that option. Two took it, two other played straight characters.

Please explain. A Gestalt Sor3//Mnk3 is absolutely not as strong as a multi-class Sor3/Mnk3. (this is simple math)]

Lets see. A Gestalt would take a monk's HD BAB and saves. With out doing all the math a CC Monk/Sorc would have about the same of as a Monk4..Since the the Sorc progression is nothing to write home to.

Spells..Equal...

HP...3D4+Con

Feats: Goes to the Gestalt. At 3/3 they qualify for 6th level feats while the CC has to gain the levels.

Skills: Toss up.

Feats played a big part in the game, Taking Powerful Build (And having Imp. grapple and Imp. Int) to deliver fun with ease. While the Cross Class is stuck building up. All they lose out on is some hp.

Ive never seen a Sorc6 stand up to a plain old Monk3. Ever.



I find it odd that people are complaining about a Optional rule, although the players who have taken it love it. (Monk/Paladin and a Sorc/Bard.




It depends on the Gestalt. While not all Gestalt are created equal, some easily tear apart things twice there level.

No, it doesn't depend on the gestalt. Any gestalt is always worse than a character twice their level (once twice their level starts meaning something, say 3/3 vs 6 or especially 4/4 vs 8 or higher). Always. Pick your favourite gestalt at 4/4 and I will show how it is considerably worse than any level 8 character. Even better, try 5/5 vs 10.

 

[Thanee]

It depends on the Gestalt.

No, it does not. There is absolutely no way, that a half-level Gestalt can equal a multiclass character with the same classes that is twice the level. Absolutely none.

Gestalting two classes gives you all abilities from one class + some abilities from the other.
Multiclassing two classes gives you all abilities from one class + all abilities from the other.

While not all Gestalt are created equal, some easily tear apart things twice there level.

Only when 'cheating' with LA on one side of the Gestalt and such stuff, which Gestalt is not intended for.

Bye
Thanee