Can monks get improved natural attack?

[KarinsDad]

This is at least interesting. It states that feats are permanent effects.

Does it also state that class features are effects? :\

 

[Cedric]

Sorry, you stepped into a hot topic around here. I'll try to sum up the discussion briefly.

If you are JUST using the core 3 books, it's a murky issue and technically would lean against allowing INA for monks.

However, if you allow precident from WotC (in this case with precident being established by the FAQ and PHB2), then WotC has clearly established that INA is allowed for Monks.

So if your group (DM) is mostly concerned with how WotC intends the rule to be used, then go for it. If you just use the core books and don't allow the other material to establish precident, then you have to decide for yourself if a feat is an effect, and if it is does that qualify for meeting the prerequisite.

My two cents? WotC has made it clear they intend for it to be allowed, so go for it.

 

[Slaved]

Does it also state that class features are effects? :\

Sure, why not? If a ranger could only use his favored enemy with manufactured weapons I would certainly allow a monk/ranger to use his unarmed strikes in place of a manufactured weapon.

 

[Mistwell]

I fall firmly into the "yes" camp. Feats provide an effect or effects. "The description of a feat defines its effects", a line that KarinsDad pointed out, seems clear enough to me. Also, it is not unbalancing.

 

[Infiniti2000]

No. And, it is very unbalancing for a feat.

 

[frankthedm]

INA scales too well for the monk. The damge upgrade is huge. What then happens is the quite cheap Enlarge person is added into the mix raising damge dire really high. And progress wise, it is like being ahead 6 monk levels in unarmed strike damage when first taken, then at 8th level the character's damage is of a 16th level monk.

6th-1d8 becomes 2d6-
7th-1d8 becomes 2d6-
8th-1d10 becomes 2d8-
9th-1d10 becomes 2d8-
10th-1d10 becomes 2d8-
11th-1d10 becomes 2d8-
12th-2d6 becomes 3d6-
13th-2d6 becomes 3d6-
14th-2d6 becomes 3d6-
15th-2d6 becomes 3d6-
16th-2d8 becomes 3d8-
17th-2d8 becomes 3d8-
18th-2d8 becomes 3d8-
19th-2d8 becomes 3d8-
20th-2d10 becomes 3d10 or 4d8-

 

[pawsplay]

See, Natural Weapon Specialization would have been a much more sensible design decision.

 

[No Name]

INA scales too well for the monk. The damge upgrade is huge. What then happens is the quite cheap Enlarge person is added into the mix raising damge dire really high. And progress wise, it is like being ahead 6 monk levels in unarmed strike damage when first taken, then at 8th level the character's damage is of a 16th level monk.

You could also say that fighter and barbarian damage goes up when you cast Enlarge Person on them as well. Especially after they take advantage of the Monkey Grip feat.

 

[frankthedm]

Monkey grip was balanced back in 3.0 when power attack was always one for one, the -2 for the larger one handed weapon was about the same trade off as power attack. In 3.5 it is a little weak since it sticks you with -2 to hit that could have been used in a two for four power attack.

 

[Drowbane]

IMO: yes

Is it the 15th already?

I swear this comes up like clockwork every month.

Enjoy your can of worms.