Converting the Dukes of Hell

[Mortis]

CR 21 sounds good.

AC 42 is spot-on for that CR, but we'll need to lower some of the bonuses to account for the +4 deflection bonus from his cloak.

Keep it simple, reduce the natural armor bonus by 4.

So...

Armor Class: 42 (+10 Dex, +11 natural, +7 insight, +4 deflection), touch 31, flat-footed 39

How about organization? Same as Amduscias?
Of my suggests, I favour 2d6 abishai of assorted colours

Regards
Mortis

 

[Aspect of BOZ]

So...

Armor Class: 42 (+10 Dex, +11 natural, +7 insight, +4 deflection), touch 31, flat-footed 39

shouldn't the flat-footed be 32?

Organization same as for Amduscias? or up it slightly as he leads more abishai?

Organization: Solitary (plus 1d6/1d8/1d10 or 2d6 abishai of assorted colors) ?

How about organization? Same as Amduscias?
Of my suggests, I favour 2d6 abishai of assorted colours

actually, we "retconned" Amdu's summoning to be 4d6 abishai automatically, and Mal's at 3d6. i still see Amdu's retinue at 1d6 abishai, so we can either increase that or just keep Mal at 1d6 as well. personally, i think 1d6 is fine, since they can both get more whenever they need. however, i can also understand the desire to keep more around!

 

[Mortis]

shouldn't the flat-footed be 32?

Absolutely I think I must of used Amdu's +3 Dex mod rather than Mal's +10 - at least when I was subtracting.

actually, we "retconned" Amdu's summoning to be 4d6 abishai automatically, and Mal's at 3d6. i still see Amdu's retinue at 1d6 abishai, so we can either increase that or just keep Mal at 1d6 as well. personally, i think 1d6 is fine, since they can both get more whenever they need. however, i can also understand the desire to keep more around!

1d6 should be fine.

Regards
Mortis

 

[Kain Darkwind]

Well, I'm not sure the AC needs to drop at all. If it does, we could always change the +4 deflect to a +3 deflect.



A 21st level fighter, +5 sword with 31 Str (15 base, +5 inherant +5 levels +6 belt) has a +36 attack bonus. A 21st level raging barbarian with the same stats has a +40 attack bonus.

This is before things like the weapon focus chain. And assuming the character didn't have an 20 str half-orc base instead.



46 AC is not too high for him. 44-45 might be kinder to the rogues and monks.

 

[Shade]

I was using the other CR 20-22 archfiends and greater aspects as a baseline. The hightest is Glasya at 46, followed by Dispater at 44. The rest fall in the 39-43 range.

 

[Aspect of BOZ]

Well, I’m not terribly worried about the AC; 42 fits in well with what we figured out awhile ago, as well as Shade’s numbers.

How about regeneration? We gave Admuscias regen 5, which might work equally well for Malphas.

 

[Shade]

Regen 5 sounds fine.

 

[Kain Darkwind]

I was using the other CR 20-22 archfiends and greater aspects as a baseline. The hightest is Glasya at 46, followed by Dispater at 44. The rest fall in the 39-43 range.

I'll buy that. I just wanted to cut against the idea that 46 was somehow 'too high' for such a CR. It is high, but not too high.

A lot of epic playtesting over at Dicefreaks has borne out some stats that suggest things like resistance to energy 10, damage reduction 20/something and ACs under 40 become complete non-factors once actual epic play takes off. (As opposed to 'mere' high level play where you might encounter a CR 20+ or several.) I just want to make sure the design process takes that into account.


Regen 5 sounds ok, regen 10 sounds better to me. Isn't regen 5 a pit fiend's level? I'm looking at the CR 23 solar with regen 15 here. Regen 10 gives us a clear bump up from the pit fiend and still leaves us with a regen 15 if we want to make the 'true Lords of the Nine' or the 'rabble of devilkin' at a higher regen rate than the Dukes.

 

[Shade]

Kain - I can definitely buy your reasoning and agree that many of the early epic baselines are too low.

Our design philosophy, though, has always been to aim as closely to whatever WotC's doing, even if it isn't our preferred approach, so as to allow the greatest compatibility for folks looking to seamlessly integrate the conversions into their campaigns. Sites like Dicefreaks do a great job of servicing the folks who like their epic a bit more epic.

In other words, whenever it seems like I'm disagreeing with you, I'm probably also agreeing with you on another level.

Back on track, only the FCII Asmodeus has regen greater than 8, and even the BoVD archdevils, other than the top 3, didn't have regen 10 or more. Pity the poor official archfiends once more. :\

 

[Kain Darkwind]

Kain - I can definitely buy your reasoning and agree that many of the early epic baselines are too low.

Our design philosophy, though, has always been to aim as closely to whatever WotC's doing, even if it isn't our preferred approach, so as to allow the greatest compatibility for folks looking to seamlessly integrate the conversions into their campaigns. Sites like Dicefreaks do a great job of servicing the folks who like their epic a bit more epic.

In other words, whenever it seems like I'm disagreeing with you, I'm probably also agreeing with you on another level.

Ah, my intent here is not to disuade an approach that follows WotCs builds, but merely to properly assess abilities and their CR.

Back on track, only the FCII Asmodeus has regen greater than 8, and even the BoVD archdevils, other than the top 3, didn't have regen 10 or more. Pity the poor official archfiends once more. :\

Well, it was my understanding that the FCII stats were merely 'powerful aspects' and that the Dukes of Hell we were doing are the 'real thing'. An 'actual Asmodeus' could very well have a regen of 15-20 based on his advancement according to the guidelines given in the FC1 and FC2, right? We are sort of assuming that the BoVD stats are around the 'real' power level even if they aren't exact stats, yes?

I'll still lend my vote toward Regen 10 for a CR 21 guy with the official solar having 15. But I ain't gonna cry if you stick with 5.