Deity Ranks: Quasideities, Lesser Deities, Greater Deities

[dave2008]

Rather that convoluted definitions of ‘deity’.

I would rather the rules organize around levels.

Any creature that is level 21 and higher is ‘epic’ and is an ‘immortal’.



There might be finer distinctions. Something like:

Levels 25-28: Immortal
Levels 21-24: Epic
Levels 17-20: Legend
Levels 13-16: Archon (Archfey, Archwizard, Lord/Lady)

So, if an individual fey or fiend is level 25, then they are an ‘immortal’.
And if an individual celestial is level 13, then they arent an immortal.

I don't like that idea at all. I prefer to have related groups (like archfey, archfiends, primordials, etc.) that share some characteristics, but could have a broad range of power.

Now I am also adding epic ranks that are another layer on top of that (a way to measure power between different groups), and perhaps closer to what you are talking about.

So what I have is something like:

Gods: epic ranks 1-4; demigods (1), lesser gods (2), intermediate gods (3), greater gods (4)
Archfiends: epic ranks 1-3
Archfey: epic ranks 1-3
Primordials: epic ranks 3-6
Archmentals: epic ranks 1-2
Celestials (archcelestials?): epic ranks 0-3
Dragons: epic ranks 0-2 (with tiamat and bahamut being rank 3 or 4)
Titans: epic ranks 1-3
etc.

EDIT: One reason I do this is so I can have a CR 32 abomination that is only epic rank 1, and a CR 32 intermediate god that is epic rank 3. The CR is just about relative combat effectiveness, and epic rank is about overall epic / divine power.

 

[gyor]

I think Quasi deities should be a thing apart. These are all things that have god like power, but are not gods. So you would have

1) Gods: demigod - lesser god - intermediate god - greater god; with a clear rank going from weakest to strongest

2) Quasi-deities: vestiges, titans, archfiends, archmentals, primordials, arcjhfey, etc.; with no clear rank between the categories

According to the DMG what previous editions had called demigods, like Lurue, are now Lesser Gods, congrats on the Promotion, and what previous editions like 3e had called Quasigod (Half God and Half Mortal) are called Demigods, which are subset of 5e Quasigods. It actually says out right that Demigods are the weakest form of Quasigod, I assumed Titans were stronger then vestiages because vestiages aka forgotten gods are not as active, bit that was just a guess on.my part, although I suspect most vestiages are rare in Faerun after the Sundering, they maybe more common in other settings.

Given the Raven Queens quasi divine status, is she some kind of Titan, an unusual active Vestiage, or a artificial demigod?

 

[dave2008]

According to the DMG what previous editions had called demigods, like Lurue, are now Lesser Gods, congrats on the Promotion, and what previous editions like 3e had called Quasigod (Half God and Half Mortal) are called Demigods, which are subset of 5e Quasigods. It actually says out right that Demigods are the weakest form of Quasigod, I assumed Titans were stronger then vestiages because vestiages aka forgotten gods are not as active, bit that was just a guess on.my part, although I suspect most vestiages are rare in Faerun after the Sundering, they maybe more common in other settings.

I was listing how I view them, not how WotC views them. To be honest I am only passingly interested in the "official" description. I make note of it, ascertain if it is useful to me or not and move on. I was listing what works for me.

Given the Raven Queens quasi divine status, is she some kind of Titan, an unusual active Vestiage, or a artificial demigod?

Different settings have different status. She is still a god in the 4e PoL setting. Just like some have pointed out that Asmo is still a god in FR.

In 5e, IMO, we can't take the MM or any one source to literally. People seem to complain about WotC changing this or that, but really they are providing different options / viewpoints. Myths are organic and provide many different viewpoints for the same story. A DM has the freedom and the right to determine what story his correct for their game.

 

[dave2008]

It actually says out right that Demigods are the weakest form of Quasigod, I assumed Titans were stronger then vestiages because vestiages aka forgotten gods are not as active, bit that was just a guess on.my part, although I suspect most vestiages are rare in Faerun after the Sundering, they maybe more common in other settings.

In 5e, titans go up to at least CR 30, so they can revival lesser gods (tiamat) in power at least. So I think it is safe to say they are among the strongest.

 

[gyor]

In 5e, titans go up to at least CR 30, so they can revival lesser gods (tiamat) in power at least. So I think it is safe to say they are among the strongest.

That is a good point, but we haven't seen Vestiages statted up yet, if they can even be statted up, they might be slumbering vortexes of supernatural power unembodied that can only function in certain circumstances.

Still I think you are right that I was right to list Titans as the most powerful Quasigods.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

It's also best to remember there are only two types of True God now.

Lesser Gods. Who can be interacted with and dwell in the Planes.
Greater Gods. Who are a level above that and can only be interacted with via their avatars.

 

[dave2008]

It's also best to remember there are only two types of True God now.

Lesser Gods. Who can be interacted with and dwell in the Planes.
Greater Gods. Who are a level above that and can only be interacted with via their avatars.

Not quite, there are two types of gods described in the WotC DMG. That doesn't mean there are only 2 types of gods

 

[MonsterEnvy]

Not quite, there are two types of gods described in the WotC DMG. That doesn't mean there are only 2 types of gods

There are Two types of gods. Intermediate can't exist under the current description. And back in 1e there were only the two types.

Also you are doing it backwards. There are only two types of Gods according to the DMG, which means there are only two types of gods, unless another official supplement comes out that says something else. Until then there are two types of gods end of story for official d&d.

 

[dave2008]

There are Two types of gods. Intermediate can't exist under the current description. And back in 1e there were only the two types.

I perfectly understand the "official" 5e stance, I just don't agree with it. Adding intermediate gods is one of the few ways I deviate from 1e and accept the 2e (?) / 3e approach to deities. Of course, intermediate could exist, as you note below. These are fluid things, that can change on a designers whim.

Also you are doing it backwards. There are only two types of Gods according to the DMG, which means there are only two types of gods, unless another official supplement comes out that says something else. Until then there are two types of gods end of story for official d&d.

I was unclear and being a bit cheeky (thus the winking smiley face). I understand what is the "official" WotC 5e stance. However, I put "official" in parenthesis because it doesn't mean anything. The fact that the 5e DMG list 2 types of gods has no effect on my game or any other game. We each have to choose to allow it to have meaning or not. I choose not.

 

[cbwjm]

I actually quite like reading about the different ranks of gods and how they have changed edition to edition.

Basic had Immortals with 6 ranks of power relating to the immortals level in the immortal class: Initiate, Temporal, Celestial, Empyreal, Eternal, Hierarch.

1e I don't know enough about to comment on.

2e has demigods, lesser gods, intermediate gods, and greater gods. Depending on the rank the amount of spell power granted to priests was limited. Demigods could grant up to 5th level spells, lesser up to 6th level spells, and intermediate and greater gods up to 7th level spells. Not a fun restriction if you wanted to play a cleric and found the mythos of a demigod a perfect fit for your PC. I believe they also had quasi-deities in 2e but I can't think of any examples.

3e kept the same distinction and split them up among divine ranks. Quasi-deities (rank 0), demigod (1-5), lesser (6-10), intermediate (11-15), greater (16-20), overgod (21+). Divine powers were specifically linked to the number of divine ranks you had, you gained 1 salient divine power for each rank and the power of your spell-like abilities was also based on this. I wanted to use 3e's divine ranks to run an immortals of Mystara campaign but it never happened.

4e simplified everything, you had the gods and then you had exarchs were were essentially lesser gods by another name. The dwarven pantheon was made up of the god Moradin and his exarchs, the other former gods of the pantheon.

5e seems to be following the distinctions in 4e but the exarchs are now known as gods and the gods are now greater gods. Demigods, as has been noted, are not powerful enough to grant spellpower. I'd forgotten this until reading through this thread.

I honestly don't know which system I prefer most. On the one hand, having a handful of greater gods and then a bunch of gods serving them is nice and simple, but I think sometimes having more distinctions would be useful depending on the kind of game you're playing.