D&D 5E Disintegrate Vs. Druid

[discosoc]

What I was saying is Disintegrate can't trigger the "or if you die" part without also triggering "reduced to 0 HP" because the spell *does* damage. It kills you by getting you to 0 HP. It's not like PWK where there's no damage component.

As for his tweat, that's exactly the kind of thing I said they'd probably state as an intention. Hence the word "intent." What I was saying (and still do) is as written the druid turns to dust.

 

[Dausuul]

Here's my take, which is admittedly based mostly on how these things work in Magic. M:tG has a very robust framework for tackling this sort of question, which sometimes comes in handy in D&D. (Other times, it leads to crazy results that have to be thrown out, but in this case it's reasonable.)

Disintegrate and Wild Shape both have triggers that go off when the wild shaped druid hits 0 hp. The Wild Shape trigger reverts the druid to human form and nonzero hit points, and the Disintegrate trigger turns the druid into a dead pile of ash. It isn't clear which trigger goes off first, but it doesn't matter.

If the Disintegrate trigger goes off first, the beast-druid becomes a dead pile of ash. Then the Wild Shape trigger goes off. The Wild Shape trigger explicitly does not restore you to life if you were somehow slain in beast form, so the dead pile of beast ash reverts into a dead pile of human ash or a dead human, depending on how you interpret "form." Regardless, it's dead.

If the Wild Shape trigger goes off first, the beast-druid becomes a human with positive hit points. The druid's hit points have now been raised above zero, but it's too late--the Disintegrate trigger was fired, it can't be un-fired. It goes off next, and turns the human druid into a dead pile of human ash.

 

[Scorpio616]

I recognize that the intent--as confirmed by Jeremy--was that the druid revert to normal form and take the leftover damage, as normal.

But personally (and with full knowledge that it's a house rule), I like the idea that the druid still has to be scared of a few things that can bypass the "wild shape buffer," and I like the idea that disintegrate is one of those things. So I think in my campaigns, if you're reduced to 0 in animal form by the spell, you're dust before you can revert.

Then you also have made Polymorph a 1-2 kill if used offensively. FYI.

 

[Mouseferatu]

Then you also have made Polymorph a 1-2 kill if used offensively. FYI.

Only if I choose to rule them the same way. Wild shape isn't polymorph. Very similar, yes, but with multiple stated differences. I think there's room to rule that they don't work exactly the same way upon reversion to 0 hit points. (Not saying I would rule that way. It hasn't come up, so I haven't decided one way or the other. Only that I think one could and remain within the realm of reason.)

 

[Arial Black]

That's a fine house rule, but the rules explicitly say you hit 0 and then revert. There is no language in RAW that says it happens "instead of". That means that as written you do hit 0 and turn to ash.

Actually, there are many things in 5E that remove their own trigger. Take the shield spell for example. It is cast as a reaction, and the trigger is "when you are hit by an attack". The effect of the spell is that it creates an invisible barrier of force (presumably positioned between you and your attacker) and gives you +5 to AC, including against the triggering attack, possibly turning a hit into a miss.

This means that you didn't get hit after all. Wait, that means that the spell didn't trigger, so you do get hit. But then the spell triggers, so you don't. But then the spell never triggers, so you do!

If you believe that, as you get hit by a spear which goes through your heart killing you, you then cast shield and are somehow resurrected, then the same applies to a wildshaped druid brought to 0hp.

If you believe that the shield spell, although triggered by being actually hit, means that you don't get hit after all, then the same applies to the druid, who reverts instead of being reduced to 0hp.

The shield spell removes its own trigger (being hit). The reversion to druid form removes its own trigger (0hp).

 

[steeldragons]

Done and dusted.

 

[bganon]

Since IMO the answer is ambiguous, I think I'd resolve it with a roll. Disintegrate caster's magic ability check vs Wild Shape user's magic ability check.

That'll keep those druids nervous...

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

Actually, there are many things in 5E that remove their own trigger. Take the shield spell for example. It is cast as a reaction, and the trigger is "when you are hit by an attack". The effect of the spell is that it creates an invisible barrier of force (presumably positioned between you and your attacker) and gives you +5 to AC, including against the triggering attack, possibly turning a hit into a miss.

This means that you didn't get hit after all. Wait, that means that the spell didn't trigger, so you do get hit. But then the spell triggers, so you don't. But then the spell never triggers, so you do!

If you believe that, as you get hit by a spear which goes through your heart killing you, you then cast shield and are somehow resurrected, then the same applies to a wildshaped druid brought to 0hp.

If you believe that the shield spell, although triggered by being actually hit, means that you don't get hit after all, then the same applies to the druid, who reverts instead of being reduced to 0hp.

The shield spell removes its own trigger (being hit). The reversion to druid form removes its own trigger (0hp).

You are limiting your interpretation of how things work by insisting on narration of every step of rules resolution, when the narration need only match the end result.

The whole "removes it's own trigger" thing is not actually true and accurate to how the rules work because it creates a paradox that can be avoided by understanding that something can be triggered by a hit, and then cause the result and narration of the attack to be a miss, without actually saying "you never hit in the first place".

The target isn't impaled through the heart and killed by a spear and then casting shield: they are hit by an attack roll, and cast shield, changing the result of the attack from possibly including impalement and death to definitely not including that possibility, as the result is being treated as a miss despite that it most certainly had to hit for shield to be validly cast.

As I told you weeks ago on another forum; you are inventing a problem where one doesn't inherently exist.

 

[Maxperson]

Actually, there are many things in 5E that remove their own trigger. Take the shield spell for example. It is cast as a reaction, and the trigger is "when you are hit by an attack". The effect of the spell is that it creates an invisible barrier of force (presumably positioned between you and your attacker) and gives you +5 to AC, including against the triggering attack, possibly turning a hit into a miss.

This means that you didn't get hit after all. Wait, that means that the spell didn't trigger, so you do get hit. But then the spell triggers, so you don't. But then the spell never triggers, so you do!

If you believe that, as you get hit by a spear which goes through your heart killing you, you then cast shield and are somehow resurrected, then the same applies to a wildshaped druid brought to 0hp.

If you believe that the shield spell, although triggered by being actually hit, means that you don't get hit after all, then the same applies to the druid, who reverts instead of being reduced to 0hp.

The shield spell removes its own trigger (being hit). The reversion to druid form removes its own trigger (0hp).

What you are missing is that shield, like relentless rage, has built in language that makes such an exception. Wildshape does not. There is no language that causes an unwind to happen.

 

[jaelis]

I think the best answer to the OP is that this is a DM call, you could read the rules either way. It just depends on what order you decide things happen, do you revert first or dust first. As far as I know there's no specific guidance in the rules to say.

As for what the best call is, I think there's decent arguments either way. But as pointed out, letting it autokill a polymorphed creature is potentially pretty powerful.