D&D 5E Disintegrate Vs. Druid

[Maxperson]

For damage-dealing spells with a "at 0hp" rider like Disintegrate, I'd allow the Druid to revert and the damage to carry over. For spells that specifically target "current HP" like Sleep or Power Word Kill, I'd definitely have them affect the Wildshaped druid based on whatever the current HP of their form was.

That is RAI for sure.

 

[Noctem]

Jeremy Crawford has directly stated that disintegration is outright death. So that point can't be debated.

Jeremy Crawford has directly stated that the intent is that against features like the Barbarian or Half-Orc features that allow a creature to resist going unconscious vs anything outside of outright death, disintegrate prevailed and those features would not function to stop you from being disintegrated and instead set to 1 HP.

Jeremy Crawford has directly stated that in the case of Wildshape the intent is that turning to dust would ONLY happen if: the druid was in wildshape, is reduced to 0 hp, revert back to druid form, take the remaining damage, be dropped to 0 hit points in druid form and finally the druid would fail the saving throw against the effect.

It doesn't matter what the wildshape form is. It could have 100 HP or 1. Any spell that specifically states it has an effect triggering by being reduced to 0 HP will not trigger against a druid simply going from wildshape back to druid form. The druid himself must be reduced to 0 hp for these effects to proc. Regardless of being wildshaped the druid's actual hp pool still exists. The wildshape simply has its own hp pool as long as it is in effect. The target of the spell, the druid, is not reduced to 0 hp when damage causes the wildshape hp pool to drop to 0 and the feature specifically details what happens when you get reduced to 0 instead of what would normally happen. Desintegrate targets the druid, not the wildshape hp pool with it's saving throw effect.

However, it should be said that things like Power Word Kill, which don't function via damage and instead simply kill a creature should still work for a wildshape druid with the right amount of HP since it looks at the currently used hp pool and not the druid hp pool and the effect is simply outright death.

 

[Maxperson]

Jeremy Crawford has directly stated that disintegration is outright death. So that point can't be debated.

Jeremy Crawford has directly stated that the intent is that against features like the Barbarian or Half-Orc features that allow a creature to resist going unconscious vs anything outside of outright death, disintegrate prevailed and those features would not function to stop you from being disintegrated and instead set to 1 HP.

Jeremy Crawford has directly stated that in the case of Wildshape the intent is that turning to dust would ONLY happen if: the druid was in wildshape, is reduced to 0 hp, revert back to druid form, take the remaining damage, be dropped to 0 hit points in druid form and finally the druid would fail the saving throw against the effect.

It doesn't matter what the wildshape form is. It could have 100 HP or 1. Any spell that specifically states it has an effect triggering by being reduced to 0 HP will not trigger against a druid simply going from wildshape back to druid form. The druid himself must be reduced to 0 hp for these effects to proc. Regardless of being wildshaped the druid's actual hp pool still exists. The wildshape simply has its own hp pool as long as it is in effect. The target of the spell, the druid, is not reduced to 0 hp when damage causes the wildshape hp pool to drop to 0 and the feature specifically details what happens when you get reduced to 0 instead of what would normally happen. Desintegrate targets the druid, not the wildshape hp pool with it's saving throw effect.

However, it should be said that things like Power Word Kill, which don't function via damage and instead simply kill a creature should still work for a wildshape druid with the right amount of HP since it looks at the currently used hp pool and not the druid hp pool and the effect is simply outright death.

Replace "...will not trigger against a druid..." with "...should not trigger against a druid..." and you are correct with that post. RAI does not replace RAW. We know the intent behind it is different, but as written the wild shape is ashed. Until they errata it, it's not wrong to ash a wild shaped druid.

 

[Noctem]

I disagree, the wildshape rules specifically say that you revert back to druid form, including actual HP pool, and any remaining damage is applied to that said hp pool. Disintegrate is not targeting the wildshape form itself, but rather the creature, it is targeting the druid. The druid's hp pool is only subject to the additional effect of disintegrate if it actually is reduced to 0 HP. I've listed the only way that can happen for the scenario in my previous post. A druid does not stop being a druid while wildshaped (you retain everything the spell says you do and when you revert back for any reason you revert back to your druid form).

Also as noted, there's a difference between a spell like disintegrate and PWK. Disintegrate won't work unless the druid's hp pool is actually reduced to 0 HP and the saving throw is failed. However PWK will kill outright and the druid's actual HP pool is not a factor.

 

[Maxperson]

I disagree, the wildshape rules specifically say that you revert back to druid form, including actual HP pool, and any remaining damage is applied to that said hp pool. Disintegrate is not targeting the wildshape form itself, but rather the creature, it is targeting the druid. The druid's hp pool is only subject to the additional effect of disintegrate if it actually is reduced to 0 HP. I've listed the only way that can happen for the scenario in my previous post. A druid does not stop being a druid while wildshaped (you retain everything the spell says you do and when you revert back for any reason you revert back to your druid form).

Also as noted, there's a difference between a spell like disintegrate and PWK. Disintegrate won't work unless the druid's hp pool is actually reduced to 0 HP and the saving throw is failed. However PWK will kill outright and the druid's actual HP pool is not a factor.

There is no single druid hit point pool. There are two distinctly separate pools of hit points stacked one on top of the other, otherwise it would be impossible to reduce the wild shape to 0. Therefore, it doesn't matter if you are targeting the druid or wild shape. Either way the druid/wild shape gets reduced to 0 prior to reversion, which triggers the disintegrate ash effect.

 

[Pauper]

Though I get the feeling I'm going to regret this, let's go to the sources:

"On a failed save, the target takes 10d6+40 force damage. If this damage reduces the target to 0 hit points, it is disintegrated." (PH, p.233)

"When you transform, you assume the beast's hit points and Hit Dice. When you revert to your normal form, you return to the number of hit points you had before you transformed. However, if you revert as a result of dropping to 0 hit points, any excess damage carries over to your normal form." (PH, p.67)

In this case, it's pretty clear that the 'target' of the spell is the druid in beast form, not the beast form itself. For that reason, the spell would only disintegrate the druid if it reduced her to 0 hit points after reverting to her normal form.

Polymorph uses the same language in its description (PH, p.266); so again, the target of the Disintegrate spell would not be the polymorphed form, but the creature in polymorphed form -- the target would only be disintegrated if it is reduced to 0 hit points after being returned to its normal form.

--
Pauper

 

[Maxperson]

Though I get the feeling I'm going to regret this, let's go to the sources:

"On a failed save, the target takes 10d6+40 force damage. If this damage reduces the target to 0 hit points, it is disintegrated." (PH, p.233)

"When you transform, you assume the beast's hit points and Hit Dice. When you revert to your normal form, you return to the number of hit points you had before you transformed. However, if you revert as a result of dropping to 0 hit points, any excess damage carries over to your normal form." (PH, p.67)

In this case, it's pretty clear that the 'target' of the spell is the druid in beast form, not the beast form itself. For that reason, the spell would only disintegrate the druid if it reduced her to 0 hit points after reverting to her normal form.

Polymorph uses the same language in its description (PH, p.266); so again, the target of the Disintegrate spell would not be the polymorphed form, but the creature in polymorphed form -- the target would only be disintegrated if it is reduced to 0 hit points after being returned to its normal form.

--
Pauper

Read wild shape. The druid is in fact reduced to 0 hit points prior to reverting to normal form. That's the issue you can't avoid or get around with what you just printed. Disintegrate doesn't care if there is another form coming that has more hit points. It triggers when the target reaches 0, which happens prior to reversion.

 

[Pauper]

Read wild shape. The druid is in fact reduced to 0 hit points prior to reverting to normal form. That's the issue you can't avoid or get around with what you just printed. Disintegrate doesn't care if there is another form coming that has more hit points. It triggers when the target reaches 0, which happens prior to reversion.

The druid isn't reduced to 0 hit points, the beast form is -- that's the point. The druid has exactly the same number of hit points when she comes out of beast form that she did when she went in, minus any spillover damage.

Since the 'target' is the druid, despite the druid being in a beast form, Disintegrate only vapes the druid if the druid falls to 0 hit points. Disintegrate doesn't care about the beast form, just as it doesn't care about polymorph, a wizard's Arcane Ward, or anything else that might take hit point damage but isn't its target.

Edit: With that said, if a DM wanted to rule that a wild-shaped druid steps out of the dust-shredded cloud that is all that remains of her beast form, I'd not only support that ruling, but think it was pretty cool.

 

[DMCF]

The forms are a "shift" so I can see the druid dying but the caveat is that despite a shift reformation to druid form doesn't account for a gaping axe wound and massive blood loss.

In the name of fun I would choose either based on the availability of resurrection. If it is readily available the druid dies. If not, then he reverts, possibly with exhaustion and an explanation to the player that this is better than outright getting dusted RAW. Given that if res is readily available that restoration very likely is as well this would not present much of a problem.

 

[Maxperson]

The druid isn't reduced to 0 hit points, the beast form is -- that's the point. The druid has exactly the same number of hit points when she comes out of beast form that she did when she went in, minus any spillover damage.

It doesn't matter which one is reduced to 0. The ash effect still hits at 0. The wild shape is just another form of the druid's body. Ash one and you ash the other.

Since the 'target' is the druid, despite the druid being in a beast form, Disintegrate only vapes the druid if the druid falls to 0 hit points. Disintegrate doesn't care about the beast form, just as it doesn't care about polymorph, a wizard's Arcane Ward, or anything else that might take hit point damage but isn't its target.

This is not supported by RAW. RAW causes the ash effect the instant 0 hit point is reached, which happens prior to reversion. For purposes of targeting and damage, the wild shape is the same as the druid, otherwise disintegrate woud deal no damage to the wild shape since it is targeting the druid.