D&D 5E Disintegrate Vs. Druid

[Maxperson]

You could argue that you should get turned into dust first, and then the pile of dust gets turned back into a human. That would be a plausible if peculiar interpretation of RAW. But there's no way to get around the disintegrate trigger. You dropped to zero; therefore you have to get turned to dust at some point.

At some point during this original discussion I asked one of the designers if disintegrate changed the form of the target when they turned to dust and was told no. It's not like a shapeshifting spell The reversion happens, but instead of being a dusted dog or humming bird, you end up being a dusted human or elf.

 

[aco175]

Great for the users first post to bring this one back. I should go and give him XP.

 

[Violent Solace]

This isn't possible as it it written. 0 is the TRIGGER. It can only be the trigger if stop at 0 hit points and check for things that happen at 0, then the extra damage that was left over gets applied. Since you've already checked for effects at 0, which is what allows the wild shape to end and the druid to revert, the spell also triggered at 0 dusting the druid.

Did you read what i said because this argument makes me believe you didn't

I said that for the reasons I listed the druid would revert THEN the damage needs to finish being resolved as you CAN still apply damage. After the damage is resolved the " if this damage reduces the target to zero hit points the target is dust" kicks in my whole argument wasn't about bypassing the "trigger" it was me using the context of the text in the book to better establish why its reason able that the druid would revert back before the trigger of the spell is active

Long story short
Because there are effects of dropping to zero hp (unconsciousness) that do not effect the druid the druids reversion MUST take precedence as there is no evidence that the spells effects and there is evidence of reversion occuring first happen first now as for when the druid reverts using this conclusion it happens before the the end of the interaction during the spell you are dealing damage you are not done doing so until you can no longer deal damage (either there is no more damage from the spell to deal to the target or there is no longer a target to deal damage to) but as you are still dealing damage to the druid after it reverts it is logical that this is when the druid reverts therfore before the spell ends and the effects take place it this point if the druid is at zero it would be turned to dust

The only argument to be made against this is if you were take the words at face value with no meaning in wich case it you read the spell see a 0 and dust the target but this is using incomplete language as language AS WRITTEN has meaning and context to be interpreted

Run your game as you wish but there is no real need of these arguments as it is ultimately up to the DM and most use the RAI when they cant decide RAW meaning as i would recommend to all DMs

 

[Maxperson]

Did you read what i said because this argument makes me believe you didn't

I did and it's just as nonsensical now as it was then.

I said that for the reasons I listed the druid would revert THEN the damage needs to finish being resolved as you CAN still apply damage. After the damage is resolved the " if this damage reduces the target to zero hit points the target is dust" kicks in my whole argument wasn't about bypassing the "trigger" it was me using the context of the text in the book to better establish why its reason able that the druid would revert back before the trigger of the spell is active

This requires you to change rules to be true. It requires you to change the shapechange rule which specifically says you hit 0 before reverting, and THEN you add in the additional damage.

Because there are effects of dropping to zero hp (unconsciousness) that do not effect the druid the druids reversion MUST take precedence as there is no evidence that the spells effects and there is evidence of reversion occuring first happen first now as for when the druid reverts using this conclusion it happens before the the end of the interaction during the spell you are dealing damage you are not done doing so until you can no longer deal damage (either there is no more damage from the spell to deal to the target or there is no longer a target to deal damage to) but as you are still dealing damage to the druid after it reverts it is logical that this is when the druid reverts therfore before the spell ends and the effects take place it this point if the druid is at zero it would be turned to dust

This is false. There's this little gem of a rule called Specific Beats General. That allows specific rules like disintegrate to overrule general ones like shapechange. That there are other effects that(and your explanation doesn't even make sense) drop a druid to 0 and don't stop the reversion is irrelevant. Those SPECIFIC rules just don't act like disintegrate as all. So there is no "must take precedence" involved with shapechange, and in fact disintegrate as the more specific rule MUST take precedence, because that the actual rule.

And maybe you missed the fact that the game designers agree with me and put out an official ruling stating that the druid is dusted before reversion.

Run your game as you wish but there is no real need of these arguments as it is ultimately up to the DM and most use the RAI when they cant decide RAW meaning as i would recommend to all DMs

Absolutely! Feel free to house rule the game to allow the druid to survive. I house rule my games to a great degree.

 

[Spastik]

Technically, the Wild shaped form never actually hits 0. Any HP total below 1 means you are in the reverted form and take damage in that form as you can never be an unconscious wild shaped creature (you either have 1 hp as the wild shape or your normal shape's HP, never 0 between). So RAW and RAI I would say absolutely it carries over to the regular druid form and if that normal form hits 0 then you are dust. DM's rules beat RAW and RAI though, so if your DM wants to just kill you and have you reroll, I'd find a new DM.

 

[cbwjm]

Technically, the Wild shaped form never actually hits 0. Any HP total below 1 means you are in the reverted form and take damage in that form as you can never be an unconscious wild shaped creature (you either have 1 hp as the wild shape or your normal shape's HP, never 0 between). So RAW and RAI I would say absolutely it carries over to the regular druid form and if that normal form hits 0 then you are dust. DM's rules beat RAW and RAI though, so if your DM wants to just kill you and have you reroll, I'd find a new DM.

That's a pretty creative reading of wildshape. It specifically mentions revert if you fall unconscious, are reduced to 0 hit points, or die. It doesn't say less than 1 but not quite 0 hit points, it says 0.

 

[jaelis]

Jeez, I made this point somewhere at the start of this discussion, but I guess I'll make it again: To resolve this question, the rules would need to specify what order to resolve ending wildshape vs dying outright when you are reduced to 0 hp. It is patently obvious that the rules don't provide that information, if you think they do then you have fooled yourself. So strictly by the book, there is no answer and the DM just needs to decide.

Now Sage Advice has officially resolved that ambiguity. There really isn't any more to say about it, is there?

 

[cbwjm]

Jeez, I made this point somewhere at the start of this discussion, but I guess I'll make it again: To resolve this question, the rules would need to specify what order to resolve ending wildshape vs dying outright when you are reduced to 0 hp. It is patently obvious that the rules don't provide that information, if you think they do then you have fooled yourself. So strictly by the book, there is no answer and the DM just needs to decide.

Now Sage Advice has officially resolved that ambiguity. There really isn't any more to say about it, is there?

Yes there is, page 7 of the PHB, Specific Beats General. In General, when a druid hits 0 hit points they revert back to their humanoid form. Disintegrate specifically states that if a target is reduced to 0 hit points they are disintegrated. Therefore, disintegrate [Specific] beats Wildshape [General].

 

[jaelis]

Yes there is, page 7 of the PHB, Specific Beats General. In General, when a druid hits 0 hit points they revert back to their humanoid form. Disintegrate specifically states that if a target is reduced to 0 hit points they are disintegrated. Therefore, disintegrate [Specific] beats Wildshape [General].

Wildshape and disintegrate are both specific effects.

 

[cbwjm]

Wildshape and disintegrate are both specific effects.

No, they aren't.