D&D 5E Disintegrate Vs. Druid

[Spastik]

Jeremy Crawford
[MENTION=4036]Jeremy[/MENTION]ECrawford
The intent is that a druid using Wild Shape is disintegrated if the druid, not the beast form, drops to 0 hp. #DnD
3:10 PM - 17 Sep 2015

Sorry, found that after you posted and edited it in. The game designer and myself are on the same page, but again DM trumps RAW and RAI.

 

[Maxperson]

The ability does not say anything about checking for any effects that happen at 0 anywhere. It does specifically state that any damage carries over so if you are hit with a 60 hp disintegrate with 10 hp left, the rest carries over specifically. Think of it as temporary HP and not a completely other being. You either have 1, or the other pool of HP. If you want to turn your players to dust that way, then by all means do so. It also keeps poly and disintegrate for a div wizard auto failing the save for a bad guy being auto win in every BBEG fight.

Saying you need to check for any results of being at 0 hp would mean you go unconscious, fall prone, and the next damage you take makes you fail death saves, then revert to your other form. Doesn't work that way.

Jeremy Crawford

​

^{@JeremyECrawford}

The intent is that a druid using Wild Shape is disintegrated if the druid, not the beast form, drops to 0 hp. #DnD
​

_{3:10 PM - 17 Sep 2015}

I think that is where the confusion lies. The other one asked if the Druid hit 0, not the wild shape.

That's old and wasn't official. He since looked at the arguments and changed his mind. From the OFFICIAL Sage Advice of 2016...

Q:What happens if a druid using Wild Shape is reduced to 0 hit points by disintegrate? Does the druid simply leave beast form?

A:The druid turns to dust, since the spell disintegrates you the instant you drop to 0 hit points.

It's clearly from the bolded portion referring to prior to reversion.

 

[Violent Solace]

The problem im seeing you are having is that you aren't understanding what im trying to say and just discrediting me before even trying to. And in that case there is literally nothing that could be said nor point that could be made that could change your mind because you aren't open to other people's opinion. If that is untrue i could try to simplify what i was saying as you may be able to understand my point im making
**asuming the bear and druid have 50**
Essentially if it were to not disentagrate the target it would be:
Hit
Deal damage ( 80)
Revert (the bear takes 50)
Deal the rest of the damage (30)
Spell end (druid is at 20)
Therefore you have NOT FINISHED dealing damage meaning the spell is in effect and is not complete yet when you revert
Now with the disintegrate it would be
Hit
Deal damage (80)
revert (the bear takes 50)
Deal rest of damage (because you are damageing the other form it must be there while damage is being dealt)
Is the target reduced to zero (druid is at 20)
No spell ends

The spell says "if this damage [10d6+40] reduces it to 0 hit points, it is disintegrated" you are suggesting whithout evidence that the spell effect is inacted before the spell is complete if that were so it would have to be disintegrating the target before it reaches 0hp wich is as RAW not how it works the spell has to resolve its damage first as the text says if you use your interpretation on a regular spell
Beast hits 0hp spell ends
Druid takes no damage

It isnt logical you call my explanation nonsensical when i use actual logic and then have no actual logic backing your reasoning i wouldn't have to change anything as wild shape a SPECIFIC rule says it happens "automatically when you... Drop to 0hp" weather the spell is still dealling damage or not you revert when the beast hits 0 it is logical

Ps the desiner did not post an official RAW only RAI and another designer posted a RAI that said it doesn't ther is no official text from THE COMPANY that states what happens only an individuals opinion he did not hold a meeting and then come to an official conclusion wich makes his opinion no more valid than any other designer

That being said as objectively as humanly possible

Im very glad you agree that house ruling is fun and it should be up to the DM whether it is RAW or not

There really isnt a wrong answer just different veiwpoints i understand where you get the idea of dusting them but the thing is as it stands because there is an option to dust them either way meaning if the druid reverts and then drops to 0 i feel as though in my biased opinion itd be fun to dust the druid then make the party serch for a way to bring them back then doing something fun like "i guess you missed some dust because your druid only seems to have 9 fingers" then go on a hunt back to were the druid wad dusted to find the finger all in all its just about having a good time

 

[Spastik]

Druid using wildshape reduced to 0 is the key there. The druid is not reduced to 0, the form is, druid still has health. What he means is that if you have a 10 hp in a form and 20 hp left as the druid, that if you are hit for 60 you are turned to dust and not that the change out of your wild shape will save you from being turned to dust. That's how it reads and how he said it's intended. But again, use whatever ruling you like, but your druid would be safe at my table

 

[Maxperson]

The ability does not say anything about checking for any effects that happen at 0 anywhere. It does specifically state that any damage carries over so if you are hit with a 60 hp disintegrate with 10 hp left, the rest carries over specifically. Think of it as temporary HP and not a completely other being. You either have 1, or the other pool of HP.

This is wrong, though. It specifically says the druid drop to 0. Therefore, it cannot possibly be that the druid does not drop to 0, at least not according to RAW. Specific beating general means that you do not either have 1, or the pool of hit points. It means that you hit 0 and then revert along with any other thing that happens when you hit 0. Since the ability specifically says you aren't rendered unconscious if your normal form has hit point remaining(something that would not be said if your claim were true since 0 never happened), that overrides the specific rules on hitting 0 causing unconsciousness.

If you want to turn your players to dust that way, then by all means do so. It also keeps poly and disintegrate for a div wizard auto failing the save for a bad guy being auto win in every BBEG fight.

You are vastly overstating the odds of this ever happening. The odds are in fact very, very slim. First, you have to have a druid change into an animal form. Then that druid has to travel to a wizard. Then that wizard has to be high enough level to cast disintegrate. Then that wizard needs to recognize that the animal is a druid and not a normal animal of that type. Then the wizard needs to want to cast disintegrate on that druid instead of another spell or leaving it alone. Then the druid needs to fail the save.

Good god, that might happen once every 5-10 campaigns or so, but it's not going to anywhere remotely close to "every BBEG fight".

Sorry, found that after you posted and edited it in. The game designer and myself are on the same page, but again DM trumps RAW and RAI.

Never argued otherwise. RAW is that the druid is dusted before reversion, though.

 

[Spastik]

Vastly overstating how often that could happen? I mean a player using it. Make a divination wizard, get him up to cast disintegrate, find the big bad guy, cast polymorph on it, make it fail its save with portent and turn it into a sloth, cast disintegrate. If you are playing a Druid, then you have a probably one in six chance of it being cast one you in a campaign that reaches tier 3 (depending on how big your party is). But as for the RAW For example, if you take 10 damage in animal form and have only 1 hit point left, you revert and take 9 damage. So if you get hit for 40 and have 20 left in your beast form, that one takes 20 and 20 gets taken to your druid form. Rules as written, disintegrate or otherwise. Now if your druid form is put to 0, you are dust, RAW and RAI.

 

[Maxperson]

The problem im seeing you are having is that you aren't understanding what im trying to say and just discrediting me before even trying to. And in that case there is literally nothing that could be said nor point that could be made that could change your mind because you aren't open to other people's opinion. If that is untrue i could try to simplify what i was saying as you may be able to understand my point im making
**asuming the bear and druid have 50**
Essentially if it were to not disentagrate the target it would be:
Hit
Deal damage ( 80)
Revert (the bear takes 50)
Deal the rest of the damage (30)
Spell end (druid is at 20)
Therefore you have NOT FINISHED dealing damage meaning the spell is in effect and is not complete yet when you revert
Now with the disintegrate it would be
Hit
Deal damage (80)
revert (the bear takes 50)
Deal rest of damage (because you are damageing the other form it must be there while damage is being dealt)
Is the target reduced to zero (druid is at 20)
No spell ends

That's not how it works or reads, though. It goes like this.

**asuming the bear and druid have 50**
Deal damage ( 80) via disintegrate.
the bear takes 50
Bear hits 0 hit points and then reverts(read wildshape. It specifically says this)
At the same time as above bear has hit 0 hit points, which triggers disintegrate and dusts the druid.(read disintegrate, it specifically triggers at 0)
Don't bother to deal the remaining 30 as dead dust can't take damage.

The spell says "if this damage [10d6+40] reduces it to 0 hit points, it is disintegrated" you are suggesting whithout evidence that the spell effect is inacted before the spell is complete if that were so it would have to be disintegrating the target before it reaches 0hp wich is as RAW not how it works the spell has to resolve its damage first as the text says if you use your interpretation on a regular spell
Beast hits 0hp spell ends

No. Nowhere in the spell does it require that the damage be complete before dusting the druid. RAW only requires the druid to hit 0, which he did per the wildshape RAW. You are re-writing disintegrate to require some sort of damage completion, which it does not have written into it.

It isnt logical you call my explanation nonsensical when i use actual logic and then have no actual logic backing your reasoning i wouldn't have to change anything as wild shape a SPECIFIC rule says it happens "automatically when you... Drop to 0hp" weather the spell is still dealling damage or not you revert when the beast hits 0 it is logical

You have to ignore both logic(by skipping the steps that are written into the spell and wildshape) AND the rules as written in order for you to be correct in your interpretation. You also have to ignore the official Sage Advice which says you are wrong. This is no longer open to interpretation. It is only open to being house ruled into the druid surviving. Feel free to do so.

Ps the desiner did not post an official RAW only RAI and another designer posted a RAI that said it doesn't ther is no official text from THE COMPANY that states what happens only an individuals opinion he did not hold a meeting and then come to an official conclusion wich makes his opinion no more valid than any other designer

Um, I posted the official text. The Sage Advice consists of official specific rules clarifications and this situation has been decided by the company.

 

[Maxperson]

Vastly overstating how often that could happen? I mean a player using it. Make a divination wizard, get him up to cast disintegrate, find the big bad guy, cast polymorph on it, make it fail its save with portent and turn it into a sloth, cast disintegrate. If you are playing a Druid, then you have a probably one in six chance of it being cast one you in a campaign that reaches tier 3 (depending on how big your party is).

Sure, because the BBEG is sitting there for rounds just allowing you to cast those spells. You have to roll badly enough on the portent rolls to cause the BBEG to fail two saves. He has to not have abilities to counter those abilities. With that kind of effort, sure, go for it. At that point you are high level anyway.

As for the 1 in 6 chance of it being cast on you in a campaign, that translates into once every 6 campaigns, which is right in with what I said, AND the druid has to fail the save. Players just don't have to worry about it.

But as for the RAW For example, if you take 10 damage in animal form and have only 1 hit point left, you revert and take 9 damage.

Give me the exact quote that says that.

 

[Spastik]

I think the argument here is what is RAW and RAI and what is house rules.

For example, if you take 10 damage in animal form and have only 1 hit point left, you revert and take 9 damage. ​p67 of PHB

RAW, take the damage and any extra from knocking you out of wild shape goes to normal druid form. Specifically says you revert and take the extra damage.

Jeremy Crawford
@JeremyECrawford
The intent is that a druid using Wild Shape is disintegrated if the druid, not the beast form, drops to 0 hp. #DnD
3:10 PM - 17 Sep 2015

RAI, only if the druid, not the form, drops to 0.

Anything other than those = house rules.

In the immortal words of Bernie Mac... Nuff Said!

 

[Maxperson]

I think the argument here is what is RAW and RAI and what is house rules.

For example, if you take 10 damage in animal form and have only 1 hit point left, you revert and take 9 damage. ​p67 of PHB

RAW, take the damage and any extra from knocking you out of wild shape goes to normal druid form. Specifically says you revert and take the extra damage.

That's not an exact quote. I want to see where your claim is written in the rules. Give me the exact language that says you revert at 1 hit point and what page it's on please.

Jeremy Crawford
@JeremyECrawford
The intent is that a druid using Wild Shape is disintegrated if the druid, not the beast form, drops to 0 hp. #DnD
3:10 PM - 17 Sep 2015

RAI, only if the druid, not the form, drops to 0.

Anything other than those = house rules.

In the immortal words of Bernie Mac... Nuff Said!

Either he was mistaken about that, as he ruled officially quote differently the next year, or the intent didn't matter and he decided the druid does die.