D&D 5E Disintegrate Vs. Druid

[Spastik]

Specifically states "if you revert as a result of dropping to 0 hit points, any excess damage carries over to your normal form." So the damage that is being taken goes to the other form specifically as you cannot actually be at 0 in wild shape. You are correct, very specific, it carries over to the normal form as stated to the specific state as a Druid. If the spell was less general and said "including wild shaped druids" then it would in fact be more specific that the wild shape verbiage.

 

[Maxperson]

Technically, the Wild shaped form never actually hits 0. Any HP total below 1 means you are in the reverted form and take damage in that form as you can never be an unconscious wild shaped creature (you either have 1 hp as the wild shape or your normal shape's HP, never 0 between). So RAW and RAI I would say absolutely it carries over to the regular druid form and if that normal form hits 0 then you are dust. DM's rules beat RAW and RAI though, so if your DM wants to just kill you and have you reroll, I'd find a new DM.

This is objectively false. Wildshape says the following...

You automatically revert if you fall unconscious, drop to 0 hit points, or die.

Drop to 0. Not when almost at 0. Not a bit after 0 would have been. But drop to 0. So technically, you are flat out wrong.

AND...

However, if you revert as a result of dropping to 0 hit points, any excess damage carries over to your normal form.

As a result of dropping to 0. Not as a result of almost dropping to 0, but not quite. Not as a result of skipping 0 and then reverting. As a result of dropping to 0.

 

[Maxperson]

Specifically states "if you revert as a result of dropping to 0 hit points, any excess damage carries over to your normal form." So the damage that is being taken goes to the other form specifically as you cannot actually be at 0 in wild shape. You are correct, very specific, it carries over to the normal form as stated to the specific state as a Druid. If the spell was less general and said "including wild shaped druids" then it would in fact be more specific that the wild shape verbiage.

You are wrong. By RAW you can in fact hit 0 and then do other things. It's called Specific Beats General. The wildshape rules specifically allow it, so it happens. The more specific disintegrate rules override the less specific wildshape rules and dusts the druid. This is backed up by the Sage Advice.

 

[Maxperson]

No, they aren't.

Yes they are. Disintegrate is just more specific AND is the controlling action, as it is the active one. Below is from the Specific Beats General section.

"That said, many racial traits, class features, spells, magic items, monster abilities, and other game elements break the general rules in some way, creating an exception to how the rest of the game works."

 

[Spastik]

Sage advice says that when the Druid hits 0 hit points he is disintegrated. Which is true, when your normal form is at 0 he would be turned to dust. It specifically states that "if you only have 1 hit point left, you revert and take 9 damage." Which means the remaining damage from disintegrate moves to the normal form and if that form goes to 0 you are dust. Very, very specific on that in the PHB. You either have 1 HP in the normal wild shape or your other hp. Rule what you like, but I'd never kill off a player like that as a DM, it's a dick move. Basically your "shape" has temp HP same as your polymorphed self does, those forms still have HP that are not at 0.


It goes the other way too. If you polymorphed a dragon to a mouse then cast disintegrate, I would carry over those HP to the dragon and not have an insta-win combo.

 

[Maxperson]

Sage advice says that when the Druid hits 0 hit points he is disintegrated. Which is true, when your normal form is at 0 he would be turned to dust. It specifically states that "if you only have 1 hit point left, you revert and take 9 damage." Which means the remaining damage from disintegrate moves to the normal form and if that form goes to 0 you are dust. Very, very specific on that in the PHB. You either have 1 HP in the normal wild shape or your other hp. Rule what you like, but I'd never kill off a player like that as a DM, it's a dick move. Basically your "shape" has temp HP same as your polymorphed self does, those forms still have HP that are not at 0.


It goes the other way too. If you polymorphed a dragon to a mouse then cast disintegrate, I would carry over those HP to the dragon and not have an insta-win combo.

Ooooookay. 0 = 1 in your world. I'm done trying to convince you of what is written in plain english. Have fun playing your way. That's the important thing.

 

[Spastik]

You can look at it in a non disintegrate way as well. You have 4 HP as a whatever ya like in wild shape. I do 4 damage do you, how many HP do you have now? Do you have 0 or do you have whatever you had in your normal druid form? I do understand English as well as math so no reason to be all snarky and Cali lol. You have fun playing as well, it's what we are here for!

 

[Maxperson]

You can look at it in a non disintegrate way as well. You have 4 HP as a whatever ya like in wild shape. I do 4 damage do you, how many HP do you have now? Do you have 0 or do you have whatever you had in your normal druid form? I do understand English as well as math so no reason to be all snarky and Cali lol. You have fun playing as well, it's what we are here for!

The sage advice is specifically talking about prior to reversion by the way. Part of the question is, "Does the druid simply leave beast form?"

To answer the question above, you have both. First you have 0. Then you check for effects that happen at 0. In the case of wildshape, you then(after dropping to 0) revert back and gain the hit points of your normal form. That's how the ability reads, and that's how it works. It clearly says you drop to 0 and then revert. Since disintegrate also checks for 0 hit points, it also triggers when the druid in animal form hits 0. So now we have two effects triggering at 0, one of which alters form, the other does not. The druid reverts to druid form, and the disintegrate dusts the druid(not a change in form despite that being non-intuitive).

I asked Jeremy Crawford on twitter during this thread a few years ago and he said that form changes specifically refer to spells and ability that allow different shapes, like shapechange and polymorph.

 

[Spastik]

The ability does not say anything about checking for any effects that happen at 0 anywhere. It does specifically state that any damage carries over so if you are hit with a 60 hp disintegrate with 10 hp left, the rest carries over specifically. Think of it as temporary HP and not a completely other being. You either have 1, or the other pool of HP. If you want to turn your players to dust that way, then by all means do so. It also keeps poly and disintegrate for a div wizard auto failing the save for a bad guy being auto win in every BBEG fight.

Saying you need to check for any results of being at 0 hp would mean you go unconscious, fall prone, and the next damage you take makes you fail death saves, then revert to your other form. Doesn't work that way.

Jeremy Crawford

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^{@JeremyECrawford}

The intent is that a druid using Wild Shape is disintegrated if the druid, not the beast form, drops to 0 hp. #DnD
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_{3:10 PM - 17 Sep 2015}

I think that is where the confusion lies. The other one asked if the Druid hit 0, not the wild shape.

 

[Maxperson]

The ability does not say anything about checking for any effects that happen at 0 anywhere.

Yes, it does. It says that at 0, then... The ONLY way to get to the then, is to check what happens when you hit 0. Are you seriously saying that the ability doesn't say that things happen when the animal form hits 0?

It does specifically state that any damage carries over so if you are hit with a 60 hp disintegrate with 10 hp left, the rest carries over specifically.

Yes, it does specifically say that AFTER THE DRUID HITS 0 and THEN REVERTS, the rest of the damage carries over and applies to the now normal form druid.

Think of it as temporary HP and not a completely other being.

No. I'm going to think of it as it is written, than you. They are not temporary hit points at all. They are permanent hit points in two different forms, both of which can hit 0 hit points per RAW.