DMs are too easy on their players

[Edena_of_Neith]

Thanks much, folks.

Obviously, there's a place for laid back, relaxed games, and just socializing with friends.
There's a place for super-killer modules like S1 The Tomb of Horrors (just leave that lock of hair behind for resurrection, and hope you don't meet Acererak ...)

I'm just saying DM's should - with pre-warning, pre-agreement, and pre-arrangement - expect the best out of their players.
If DMs expect the best, I'm guessing the players will give their best. (In some of the half-hearted games I had the misfortune to be in, not only did the players have to give very little, but they lost faith in themselves as competent players. How do I know that? They panicked when any imagined real encounter threatened. They didn't believe they could handle any real threat.)

 

[Arkhandus]

Oh please, lets not start that "adversarial" argument again.

You are mistaken. What Edena described is adversarial DMing, it just isn't quite as merciless as the most adversarial RBDMing, but it's still adversarial and stressful for the players.

That isn't the same thing as merely running an exciting and engaging game, what Edena describes is hounding the players and keeping them from enjoying the game. Unless they're the kind of folks who enjoy constant, high tension or masochism, which is not the norm.


I don't play D&D to build up more stress. I have far more than I need from Real Life (tm) as it is. I expect to be rewarded in fun for any effort I put into the game, because it is a game.

PCs die and sometimes have to run away or survive just by the skin of their teeth, but it should not be the norm for a typical session. When a PC screws up big time or goes up against impossible odds, chances are they get eaten/mashed into paste/vaporized.

 

[Warbringer]

... removed

 

[Doug McCrae]

If you want a super heroes game - play one.

At high level, D&D has always been a superhero game. Incidentally, 'superhero' is the title of an 8th level fighter in 1e.

 

[Doug McCrae]

I love both DMing and playing in this type of game. I see too many people (including in the campaign I am currently running) trying to do super hero actions.

You know - the guy who wants to take that combination of classes and feats to become an immortal (a psionic feat allows you to step out of the time stream, effectively making you immortal) and who is metamorphosed into a gargoyle all the time.

The guy who wants his kobold to be dragon-descended so he can eventually run around as a gold dragon all the time.

The spellcaster who has the bonded summoner class to get an elemental.

Surely a game with harder challenges encourages exactly these sorts of uber characters? I see it in our games. The fights get tougher, the weaker characters die. Players create new more min-maxed PCs to survive in the harsher environment.

 

[ThirdWizard]

I dunno, seems like a lot of posturing. "I can throw great wyrms at level 5 parties!" It just doesn't impress me.

 

[Cathix]

The main DM I had when D&D 3e first came out was much like what the OP has suggested is best. We lost a lot of PCs, and we realised that we weren't having a lot of fun getting mowed down all the time. So we upped the game.

There's a short story by Alastair Reynolds named Diamond Dogs, where a bunch of people have to solve mathematical problems in order to advance through an alien tower. If they fail, there is lethal result. The people resort to extreme measures to increase their brain power, they reduce the need for sleep, they even eventually replace their entire bodies so that they can continue to advance through the ever smaller rooms of the tower.

Our group's PCs became like that. Our characters became ciphers, extremely specialised tools to "win" the dungeon. They were just there to fulfil our role in the dungeon, and that's all. While this process certainly helped me understand the rules of the game a heck of a lot better, it wasn't very healthy. It's also the reason both my best friend and I started our own games. We simply needed a break from the tension.

Such a play style is great for specific play environments, but not all of them. Being "on the game" 100% of the time is grating, and tiresome IMO. Like a film, book, or computer game, RPGs should have what's called pacing. For me, ideally there should be some moments of intensity (like the OP), but also other slower moments too where the PCs aren't under assault.

I'm not going to get involved in the discussion any more than this - that was a terrific post, Azure.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

You are mistaken. What Edena described is adversarial DMing, it just isn't quite as merciless as the most adversarial RBDMing, but it's still adversarial and stressful for the players.

That isn't the same thing as merely running an exciting and engaging game, what Edena describes is hounding the players and keeping them from enjoying the game. Unless they're the kind of folks who enjoy constant, high tension or masochism, which is not the norm.


I don't play D&D to build up more stress. I have far more than I need from Real Life (tm) as it is. I expect to be rewarded in fun for any effort I put into the game, because it is a game.

PCs die and sometimes have to run away or survive just by the skin of their teeth, but it should not be the norm for a typical session. When a PC screws up big time or goes up against impossible odds, chances are they get eaten/mashed into paste/vaporized.

(chuckles)

Adversarial DMing?
I know a little bit about that. Let me tell you what Adversarial DMing truly is.

I was a player in the following examples:

- DM's NPC: 'I am the devil, and offer everyone a ton of (insert magical items and other goodies) for a favor of my choosing. Accept?' (Party generally accepted, most lost their souls including party paladin.)
- DM: 'You kill the 2 orcs. The noise of the battle has aroused ALL the monsters in the entire dungeon, and they are all approaching. Way off, you hear a series of thunderous growls as something really big starts moving. What do you do?' (1st level party of two, B1, TPK.)
- DM: 'No, you can't take pre-gen higher level characters into I6, Ravenloft. You go, with what you've earned, and since you've earned nothing, you go with 1st level characters. Except you. You can take your 10th level druid.' (13 1st level characters, 1 10th level druid, TPK.)
- DM: 'No, you can't take pre-gen higher level characters into S3, White Plume Mountain. (11 1st level characters, TPK.)
- DM: 'The 4 orcs come around the corner. No, there is not time for the mage and thief to switch places with the fighters. The fighters are trapped against the door, while the orcs attack the thief and mage. Since they surprised you, they obviously get free attacks. (4 1st level characters, TPK.)
- DM: 'The 50 pixies, invisible and armed with sleep arrows, surround you and demand all your good and items.' (4 1st level characters, all items of worth lost.)
- DM: 'Nobody EVER makes it through my PC's castle! So just how do you think you're going to do it?' (We did it ...)
- DM: 'The six giant spiders attack!' (4 1st level characters, we survived thanks to that old first edition tactic called Burning Oil.)
- DM: 'The town guard ready their magical bows with Morganti Arrows, aiming them at you.' (For the crime of causing a barroom brawl. Called the winged unicorn, got away.)
- DM: 'Acererak shows up personally, and puts a demon army between himself and you. You're hiding in that spell, but you know what will happen the moment you leave. And Acererak can chase you anywhere: you know that.' (result still in question.)
- DM: 'Vecna is coming after you personally. No, you can't leave his Domain, for he is the Domain Lord and has blocked it. Now, you are pinned against the wall, and Vecna is leering at you as he prepares his titanic magic. There is no escape. Your action?' (Edena the PC killed.)
- DM: 'A 10,000 hit dice monster? That's nothing. This creature has duplicates of itself through all the times, and every one of them is coming. In 5 rounds, every version of this 10,000 hit dice monster in time (countless millions) will appear. What do you do?' (5th level party, result not relevant)
- DM: 'The Test of the Tower of High Sorcery. You shall pass through Shoikan Grove. Since you agreed to the Test, you cannot turn away now, for the penalty for doing so is death.' (6th level alone, passed the Grove and the Test - and the spectres, death knight, and dracolich. The worst part is: the Test is SUPPOSED to be that difficult. )
- DM: 'The creature fires an 18th level spell at you, and it hits' (character vaporized)
- DM: 'The ceiling rigged by the party barbarian to kill the party collapses, and this kills most of the party.' (most of party killed, barbarian got away with all the treasure and our paladin as prisoner, in final battle all of party killed by barbarian except paladin prisoner.)
- DM: 'The High Clerist's Tower is a cakewalk, a treasure hunt, nothing hard like what you've already been through' (large party of 8th - 11th level characters after long campaign, TPK)

Now, tell me more about Adversarial DMing ...

 

[Harmon]

Problem with this GMing style-

Personally, I like characters with back ground, and substance that takes days and weeks to make, and work through.

I know I could make up dozens of characters that have dozens of different backgrounds, quirks, and interesting little family stories, but why? I mean the GM is out to kill my character, so...
GM- "so what's your next character?"
Me- "the group needs a Cleric, so a cleric."
GM- "what's his name?"
Me- "George, George the Cleric."
GM- "your last five characters have been named George. George the Monk, George the Fighter, I am detecting a theme? Do you have a back story?" <he receives a tattered and old bit of paper> "this is the same one as George, the fighter?"
Me- "Yep, I'd make up something different if you would stop throwing CR 20 encounters around at a group of 5th level characters. Personally its boring to me."

Why is it boring? Because the Players just start thinking about their next character. And I have done that, started talking to other Players about- "you want to play the cleric after this fight is over?"

I guess that when you are 5th level, and you have a 17 AC, and a creature that can spot invisible things, and travel almost three times faster then you with his +32 Bite and Swallow Whole. Well its kinda stupid to even entertain the thought that you have more then a 5% chance of surviving a single round.

I suppose if its what your regular group likes after a decade of play, then well, have fun. Me, I might show up every week, but I would get a white board for a character sheet after a while.

 

[Jim Hague]

(chuckles)

Adversarial DMing?
I know a little bit about that. Let me tell you what Adversarial DMing truly is.

So what you're advocating is basically a combination of one-upsmanship with your players, ego stroking for yourself, and being a jerk when you're behind the screen.

Gotcha.

Sorry, but I don't play with people who game to boost their egos. I play to have fun. Challenge is fun. Danger is fun. When the GM stacks the odds against you, arbitrarily screws the characters and all for nothing more than their own pitiful self-aggrandizement? That's not a game. It's just bad comedy.