does anyone else think half-orcs get gypped?

[kayn99]

The part of this discussion that we all leave out is the type of game that is being played. We (my group) run a very detailed game where there is a lot of role playing and the half orc comes up very short in it. The double minuses really hurt it in addition it is also a Grim and Gritty rules set (alternative rules). In a hack and slash or dungeon crawl, the half orc does very well. I think you need to figure out what you will be doing with the half orc to see how it does.

Kayn

 

[KarinsDad]

minor nitpicks but
KarinsDad i think you forgot the +1 attack vs orcs in your halforc vs dwarf calculations
(circumstantial, but dwarves get combat bonuses versus orcs, goblinoids, giants, orges, trolls)
and
why does the sword and board dwarf fighter use a +2 longsword when they could've have a +2 dwarven waraxe

Good point.

I'll post the corrected version:


If you create a Dwarf Tank with Two Handed weapon, they should have the same Dex, Con +2 advantage Dwarf, and Str +2 advantage Half-Orc.

So same AC, Half-Orc has +2 damage for Strength.

This means that every successful hit takes out 2 levels of the Dwarf's Con bonus.

For example, the Half-Orc with 20 Str and 14 Con, Dwarf with 18 Str and 16 Con. The Half-Orc will be doing 2D6 + 7 damage whereas the Dwarf will be doing 2D6 + 6 damage. The Half-Orc Barbarian has 14 hit points, the Dwarf does 13 hits of damage. The Dwarf Barbarian has 15 hit points, the Half-Orc does 14 damage. This is fairly even against each other. However, if the Dwarf is not fighting a Half-Orc, he is -1 more to hit (which means the Half-Orc averages 2 more points of damage than the Dwarf with same to hit Power Attack). And, as levels go up, the Half-Orc's Str will get to 22 where he does 2 more points of damage than the Dwarf (for a total of 4 more damage if fighting a non-Orc opponent with the same to hit).


If you create a Dwarf Tank with Sword and Board, they should have the same Dex, Con +2 advantage Dwarf, and Str +2 advantage Half-Orc.

At low level, the Dwarf has +2 AC because of the large shield and +1 to hit Orcs, but the Half-Orc is +1 to hit. This equates to a 10% difference.

So, if the Half-Orc has a 25% chance of hitting the Dwarf, the Dwarf has a 35% chance of hitting the Half-Orc.

However, the Half-Orc will be doing 2D6 + 1.5 Str damage whereas the Dwarf will be doing D10 + (Str-1) damage. If the Half-Orc has a Strength of 18, the Dwarf has a Str of 16. 25% * 13 points of damage is 3.25 average for the Half-Orc versus 35% * 8.5 = 2.975 damage for the Dwarf.

But at low level, the chances to hit would typically be higher than 25% and 35%. They would tend to be more like 45% and 55%. There, the Half-Orc does even more average damage (5.85 versus 4.675).

As levels get higher, the damage output by the Half-Orc still exceeds that of the Dwarf.

Say, 11th level. Dwarf Fighter has AC 25 with +1 Dex, +2 Dwarven Waraxe, +2 Full Plate, and +2 Large Shield.

Half-Orc Fighter has AC 21 with +1 Dex, +2 Greatsword and +2 Full Plate.

Str 26 Con 18 Half-Orc (+4 Belt and +2 Amulet), Str 24 Con 20 Dwarf (same magic items)

Both have Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization. Hit points Half-Orc 109, Dwarf 120.

Full round attack, the Sword and Board Dwarf averages:

(95% * D10+11) + (85% * D10+11) + (60% * D10+11) = 37.95 *1.1 (criticals) = 41.745

The Half-Orc averages:

(90% * 2D6+16) + (65% * 2D6+16) + (40% * 2D6+16) = 44.85 *1.1 (criticals) = 49.335

The Half-Orc does 7+ more points of damage on average than the Dwarf. The Dwarf only has 11 more hit points than the Half-Orc, so after two full round attacks, the Dwarf has fewer hit points remaining than the Half-Orc.

Note: the Dwarf does an average of 3.5 more points of damage on a critical (3D10 + 33 > 4D6+32), however, the Half-Orc criticals nearly twice as often (10% of the time * lesser to hit chance versus 5% of the time * greater to hit chance).

Also, if the Dwarf is not fighting the Half-Orc or some other goblin type, he is at -1 to hit (as compared to the numbers here where he is fighting the Half-Orc).

Plus, against Damage Reduction, the Half-Orc shines. Against DR 10, he averages 13 points of damage per hit. The Dwarf averages 6.5 points of damage per hit.


All in all, the Half-Orc is still the better offensive fighting machine. He will last longer in combat not because he has a lot of hit points (the Dwarf has slightly more), but because he will take out opponents faster.

 

[kayn99]

why do we keep having the dwarf and half orc fighting each other. You should have them both be fighting a static target or create a target. This way, you can see how they both preform over the long and short term. They both should be Barbarians (the dwarf and HO), and have the same stat set. The only difference should be the advantages the base race gives and the different builds with feats.


Kayn

 

[javcs]

why do we keep having the dwarf and half orc fighting each other. You should have them both be fighting a static target or create a target. This way, you can see how they both preform over the long and short term. They both should be Barbarians (the dwarf and HO), and have the same stat set. The only difference should be the advantages the base race gives and the different builds with feats.


Kayn

Because of the fact that if you use the exact same build, which you shouldn't if you're comparing optimizations, you'll get different results for different builds. Unless you use a completely neutral build type (which is rather difficult to do).
My point earlier was that half-orcs do well, in a specific build, possibly the best in that build type, particularly at lower levels, but isn't very versatile in the types of builds he can do. However, the other races do as well in their own specific builds, and are still good in other builds. Furthermore, the other races are more useful outside of pure combat situations and those requiring raw strength, admittedly, most of the bonuses the other races get are minor and mostly flavor oriented, but half-orcs get nothing.

If you look at more aspects of race, how many race specific PrCs/feats are there for half-orcs? I can't think of many offhand, while almost every other race has a respectable number of PrCs/feats for them, some of which are specifically anti-orc.

 

[brehobit]

As others have said, half-orcs just need some minor misc. bonuses.

+2 saves vs. disease and poison
+2 to intimidate
rapid healing of hitpoints (1.5x natural healing rate of hit points only)
+2 to survival checks for self survival only.

 

[smootrk]

As others have said, half-orcs just need some minor misc. bonuses.

+2 saves vs. disease and poison
+2 to intimidate
rapid healing of hitpoints (1.5x natural healing rate of hit points only)
+2 to survival checks for self survival only.

I agree. Half-Orcs are lacking, but a few minor bonuses covering a few aspects of their Orcish heritage will go a long way in making them interesting - note that standard Orcs may need the same or better treatment as well.

Some interesting tweaks on current rules could go a long way in making them better suited for some roles. For instance, isn't there a Feat that allows a Dwarf to use CON instead of CHA for Sorcerers? Make a similar feat for Half-Orcs except geared towards Warlocks or a Orcish style of Warmage. Tweak the Wilderness Rogue (UA variant) so that it appeals to Orcs/Half-Orcs with abilities based on Endurance (CON) rather than nimbleness (dex). Tweak Orc Deities so that CHA is not used for Turn/Rebuking, but rather STR instead done with a ferocious roar.

In other words, there are always some houserule options, or even new Feats that can be made up to effect certain beneficial changes that could re-balance the Half-Orc. Just as the Races of Stone had many feats/options that catered to Dwarves (or whatever Race/Book combo you want to compare), the intrepid DM could make up new features to enhance a player's options who wants to play an Orc.

 

[KarinsDad]

why do we keep having the dwarf and half orc fighting each other. You should have them both be fighting a static target or create a target. This way, you can see how they both preform over the long and short term. They both should be Barbarians (the dwarf and HO), and have the same stat set. The only difference should be the advantages the base race gives and the different builds with feats.

It doesn't matter.

If the Half-Orc does more damage against the Dwarf when the Dwarf gets a +1 bonus to hit the Half-Orc, it is also going to do more damage against other targets than the Dwarf will.

The advantage the Half-Orc has is more damage in the same period of time (and movement if not in heavier armor).

The advantage the Dwarf has is an additional skill point per level, slightly better hit points, and slightly better saves against spells.

So, if offense is your style, take the Half-Orc. He will typically wipe out more opponents in a shorter period of time, saving party resources.

If defense is your style, take the Dwarf. He will not do as much damage in the same amount of time, but occasionally he will survive a spell attack or survive a lot of damage easier.

 

[Endur]

If you look at more aspects of race, how many race specific PrCs/feats are there for half-orcs? I can't think of many offhand, while almost every other race has a respectable number of PrCs/feats for them, some of which are specifically anti-orc.

Half-orcs (and only half-orcs) have access to the broken Tribal Protector PRC from Sword & Fist.

Although I do agree, that in general, half-orcs should get access to a few more orcish feats.

But half-orcs should be compared to half-elves for feat access, not to elves. The equivalent of elven feat access would be orcs.

 

[Thurbane]

In the dark? You consider Darkvision not equal to or even greater than a feat?

Maybe, but then again, Dwarves get Darkvision, +2 to Con, and only one -2 stat, rther than two.

How about considering these two PCs when they have the exact same to hit (pulled straight from your example above):

A strikes at +6 if using PA, and hits for 2d6+11.
B strikes at +6 and hits for 2d6+7.

So, A does 4 points per hit more.

Well, if you want to tip the scales by saying one is using PA and the other not. But I will acknowledge in that example A has a +1 to hit and +2 damage.

Do you really think that this is not equal to the Cleave feat? Do you really think that this will not give A an extra action once in a while (i.e. A takes out his opponent, but B is still fighting his, so A gets to do something other than fighting his opponent on the next round)? Plus, A can swing at +7 if necessary. B cannot.

Well, since we are now talking about 2 points rather than 4, then no, I don't really consider it the equal of the Cleave feat...

In short, my basic position is that Strength is not some "be all and end all" stat that warrants penalties on two other stats. In the specific examples given, yes, Strength is very valuable. In an infinite number of other examples that could be presented, any stat could be shown to be superior in that given situation...

 

[Stalker0]

People are noting that the Half-Orc is better on offense while the dwarf is better at defense. What they are neglecting is that the defense applies ALL the time.

If I'm fighting a spellcaster, doing one more damage with a slightly better chance to hit doesn't matter. Surviving that fireball does. The half-orc does more damage, but oh look now he's dominated..and that damage is going against the party. The dwarf's +2 to all spells and SLA is such a huge bonus.

The half-orc gets a small boost in an area he's good out, while the dwarf gets many benefits in places he's not great at or even weak at. That's worth a lot more to me.