does anyone else think half-orcs get gypped?

[Votan]

While you're right, it matters more the higher the AC is you fight against.

Example: If you need a 17+ to hit, a +1 to hit will increase your average damage by what? 25%. Granted, that's an extreme example... but pretty important for the secondary attacks.

About halforc style and extra feats and whatever: Read the thread. This has already been discussed and many houserules or bonuses to the halforcs have been proposed and me for example said: I like them and I do use such stuff.

This discussion now was not about whether the halforc couldn't use extras, it was about:

"Why did the designers think they had to balance Str+2 with two stat penalties?"

The answer is simply summarized:
"Because that str+2 is useful for most halforc characters very often in most games."

Team, I quit.

Fair enough. Something else that I think needs to be considered about balance -- you balance against the strongest use of a race, not the weakest.

Dwarves make excellent wizards (despite the move issue which is alrger than usually considered) but horrible sorcerers. Elves make sub-optimal tanks. Halfling Barbarians are rare (despite being fun).

If you improved the Hlaf-Orc it would be start being really good for strange classes like Cleric. For example, +2 STR, -2 INT would make a brutal cleric. The Dwarf already has some of this but the slow movement helps balance this race except for making the ebst fighters.


Also, I suspect that the designers balanced Iconic Characters not necessarily classes and races themselves. So they balanced a Half-Orc Barbarian (see more skill points) with a Dwarf Fighter, Halfling Rogue and Elf Wizard. I think you'll find the game plays surprisingly more balanced when you use these combinations.

 

[Votan]

(not that it matters in this conversation, but i think the chain shirt (read chain T-shirt) is overpowered, making medium armors obsolete)

In D&D these days, there are really only 2 types of armor once you make about 3rd level and can freely afford the type of armor to wear -- Full Plate and Chain Shirts. Everything else is mechanically suboptimal.

 

[Darklone]

In D&D these days, there are really only 2 types of armor once you make about 3rd level and can freely afford the type of armor to wear -- Full Plate and Chain Shirts. Everything else is mechanically suboptimal.

That's worth a new thread in houserules. Who starts it?

 

[Votan]

That's worth a new thread in houserules. Who starts it?

Why not?

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

compare barbs to barbs, fighters to fighter, rangers to rangers
only rangers have a move speed difference

Sure.

The Half-Orc Barbarian moving 40' compares well enough with the Dwarven Barbarian moving 30'. And the stat penalties hurt much less, as the Barbarian class has plenty of skill points.

Nope, no balance problem there.

and how much fun will that newb have during all the times that initiative isnt rolled?
that all depends on the game/DM style

That is too broad an issue to make any useful generalizations. The topic of DM style cuts both ways.

 

[Felnar]

The Half-Orc Barbarian moving 40' compares well enough with the Dwarven Barbarian moving 30'.

i dont play the high levels much, but i thought barbs wore mithral full plate
-----------
i had a thought about charisma penalties
are charisma penalties better suited for lawful alignment than for chaotic alignment?
basically, how are alignment and charisma connected?
(i've always had weak alignment-fu)

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

i dont play the high levels much, but i thought barbs wore mithral full plate

Or mithral breastplate.

 

[werk]

"Why did the designers think they had to balance Str+2 with two stat penalties?"

The answer is simply summarized:
"Because that str+2 is useful for most halforc characters very often in most games."[/b]

Team, I quit.

I think the answer is because orcs are stupid and stinky/ugly. Not necessarily a balance thing, or maybe an extrapolation on balancing measures.

Dwarves don't get stonecunning because it makes them more or less powerful. There has to be some room in the game for theme, right?

 

[Darklone]

I think the answer is because orcs are stupid and stinky/ugly. Not necessarily a balance thing, or maybe an extrapolation on balancing measures.

Dwarves don't get stonecunning because it makes them more or less powerful. There has to be some room in the game for theme, right?

Ok. Give them str +4 then.

 

[Felnar]

Dwarves don't get stonecunning because it makes them more or less powerful. There has to be some room in the game for theme, right?

i stated this earlier, but stonecunning is a very potent ability while dungeoncrawling
it allows passive search checks against stonework traps