does anyone else think half-orcs get gypped?

[Fishbone]

Well I think we are arguing about the effectiveness of the Dwarf versus the Half Orc in a manner that only shows off the Half Orc's good side. Its strange to see Half Orc apologists decry their weakness and then plead for a little something more.
Strength is not the be all end all, Dexterity is at least as important, but I don't see halflings and elves taking two -2s. The stat imbalance and lack of bonus to some skills are the only things keeping the Half Orc a loincloth sporting irrelevancy.

 

[KarinsDad]

People are noting that the Half-Orc is better on offense while the dwarf is better at defense. What they are neglecting is that the defense applies ALL the time.

If I'm fighting a spellcaster, doing one more damage with a slightly better chance to hit doesn't matter.

Not if there is no spell cast at the Dwarf.

Not if there is no save versus the spell.

And, the defense does not help at all 90% of the time when there is a save.

You have a very strange use of the word ALL.

Most of the time (i.e. most rounds of combat), the +2 doesn't mean squat. Probably a good 99% of the time, the save modifier does nothing for the Dwarf.

The only time it matters is:

1) A spell is cast at the Dwarf (maybe 1 combat in 4 in most campaigns since many encounters do not have any spell casters).

2) A spell is cast within a given round at the Dwarf when enemy spell casters exist (maybe 1 round in 3 since PCs tend to take out enemy spell casters quickly and those NPCs casters might not target the Dwarf in any given round since spell casters often tend to target other spell casters first).

3) The spell has a saving throw (maybe 9 spells in 10).

4) The +2 makes a difference to the roll (1 time in 10).

More or less, that's about one round in 133. It hardly ever matters. Even if you made #1 all combats and #2 all rounds (an extremely spell heavy campaign), that's still 1 time in 11 rounds.


The +2 Strength, on the other hand, will occur on probably 90% of all rounds (i.e. the Half-Orcs with a high strength will probably attack with a melee weapon or a Strength Composite Bow 9 rounds out of 10 and maybe do full moves or other actions 1 round in 10).

90% of all rounds versus 1% to 9% (campaign dependent) of all rounds.


Your spell defense point is totally without appreciable merit.

 

[Thurbane]

Leaving aside the issue of whether or not Strength is the best stat to have a bonus on for a moment...who thinks that dropping one of the negative stats for 1/2 Orcs (lets say Charisma, and leaving only a -2 on Intelligence), and giving them a +2 bonus on 2 or 3 skills (say Survivla, Climb and Intimidate, for the sake of argument) would overpower 1/2 Orcs against the other PHB races?

 

[smootrk]

Leaving aside the issue of whether or not Strength is the best stat to have a bonus on for a moment...who thinks that dropping one of the negative stats for 1/2 Orcs (lets say Charisma, and leaving only a -2 on Intelligence), and giving them a +2 bonus on 2 or 3 skills (say Survivla, Climb and Intimidate, for the sake of argument) would overpower 1/2 Orcs against the other PHB races?

Certainly not game breaking in my opinion. The race also needs additional feats (ORC Feats) to extend that balance into higher levels, just as Dwarves have feats geared towards them, Elves have feats geared to them, etc. The Half-Orc especially (at least) needs some feats that help to ease the application of certain classes that they are otherwise ill-suited for (like the CON for CHA feat that I have seen geared for Dwarven Sorcerers that I mentioned in an earlier post).

Then you have a well rounded race.

 

[AbeTheGnome]

Leaving aside the issue of whether or not Strength is the best stat to have a bonus on for a moment...

yes, let's. in fact, let's make it longer than a moment. i suggest for the remainder of this thread's existence. who's with me? we can start another thread about which stat is the most useful (one that i'll never look at, because i have no opinion, and don't really care all that much...).

 

[brehobit]

The +2 Strength, on the other hand, will occur on probably 90% of all rounds (i.e. the Half-Orcs with a high strength will probably attack with a melee weapon or a Strength Composite Bow 9 rounds out of 10 and maybe do full moves or other actions 1 round in 10).

90% of all rounds versus 1% to 9% (campaign dependent) of all rounds.


Your spell defense point is totally without appreciable merit.

By your logic the attack bonus (+1) only matters 5% of the time. The damage bonus certainly only matters on a hit, and I suppose only if that extra damage actually causes the baddy to drop earlier. So maybe 10-20% of the time?

I don't really have a horse in this race, but I think the whole "how often it matters" thing is a silly metric.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

People are noting that the Half-Orc is better on offense while the dwarf is better at defense. What they are neglecting is that the defense applies ALL the time.

If I'm fighting a spellcaster, doing one more damage with a slightly better chance to hit doesn't matter. Surviving that fireball does. The half-orc does more damage, but oh look now he's dominated..and that damage is going against the party. The dwarf's +2 to all spells and SLA is such a huge bonus.

The half-orc gets a small boost in an area he's good out, while the dwarf gets many benefits in places he's not great at or even weak at. That's worth a lot more to me.

True to a point.

But while a Half-Orc Barbarian in light armor moving 40' is probably going to die more often than that Dwarf Fighter who has the advantage(!?!) of only moving 20', I can virtually guarantee any newb can figure out how to have a hell of a lot fun with the Half-Orc every time initiative is rolled.

Can you really say the same about the Dwarf?

IME, no friggin' way. Moving slow often means seeing the battle practically over and you have only gotten one lousy attack in. If that. It takes a certain style of player and/or a heck of a lot of teamwork to have fun with that character.

I have played heavily armored PCs and seriously considered downgrading to the light stuff. Would I die for that choice? Eventually, yeah. But I would have fun along the way.

 

[KarinsDad]

By your logic the attack bonus (+1) only matters 5% of the time. The damage bonus certainly only matters on a hit, and I suppose only if that extra damage actually causes the baddy to drop earlier. So maybe 10-20% of the time?

You are correct except for your percentages.

The extra damage (1 to 4 points circumstance depending) occurs on every successful hit.

At low level, that tends to be about 50% of the time for combatant types. At real high levels, that tends to be about 95% of the time (assuming no miss chance) for single attacks and AoOs, but multiple times PER ROUND on full round attacks.

One would still have to multiple this by the percentage of rounds in which an attack can actually occur (maybe 90%), but it is still a high percentage of rounds where progress is being made.

The metric is still a lot better than 1% to 9% of rounds of saving against a spell where the Dwarf would not have saved anyway.


As to whether it only helps if the baddie drops, this is totally debatable and campaign dependent. In our campaigns, baddies often run away if they get too injured (DM discretion) or if too many of their allies fall. Or, the extra damage from the Half-Orc might mean that when the Wizard does Scorching Ray, it does make a baddie drop whereas he would not have dropped from the spell without the extra damage. Extra damage can also cause enemy Divine casters to cast cure spells instead of more offensive ones.

Even making one opponent per combat drop one round earlier due to the extra damage saves party resources and hastens the end of battles. And, this tends to occur nearly every combat.

Extra damage also means a lot when an opponent has Damage Reduction and again, it would mean this every successful attack which can easily be multiple attacks per round, even at lower levels with AoOs (and with multiple attacks and Haste at higher levels).

An extra trickle against the opposition (above and beyond more normal melee damage) most rounds as opposed to stopping a flood from the opposition (i.e. a save versus a typically more potent spell) once in a rare blue moon. The extra trickle allows the Half-Orc to survive when others would not. The once in a blue moon extra saves of the Dwarf is going to happen as well, but it just won't happen enough times to seriously conserve party resources and assist in more everyday survival (i.e. most days, it won't come into play at all) as often as the Half-Orc damage trickle.

 

[Felnar]

But while a Half-Orc Barbarian in light armor moving 40' is probably going to die more often than that Dwarf Fighter who has the advantage(!?!) of only moving 20',

compare barbs to barbs, fighters to fighter, rangers to rangers
only rangers have a move speed difference

(not that it matters in this conversation, but i think the chain shirt (read chain T-shirt) is overpowered, making medium armors obsolete)

I can virtually guarantee any newb can figure out how to have a hell of a lot fun with the Half-Orc every time initiative is rolled.

and how much fun will that newb have during all the times that initiative isnt rolled?
that all depends on the game/DM style

 

[Darklone]

By your logic the attack bonus (+1) only matters 5% of the time. ...

While you're right, it matters more the higher the AC is you fight against.

Example: If you need a 17+ to hit, a +1 to hit will increase your average damage by what? 25%. Granted, that's an extreme example... but pretty important for the secondary attacks.

About halforc style and extra feats and whatever: Read the thread. This has already been discussed and many houserules or bonuses to the halforcs have been proposed and me for example said: I like them and I do use such stuff.

This discussion now was not about whether the halforc couldn't use extras, it was about:

"Why did the designers think they had to balance Str+2 with two stat penalties?"

The answer is simply summarized:
"Because that str+2 is useful for most halforc characters very often in most games."

Team, I quit.