EN World City Project: Government Affairs Submissions

[fusangite]

Gladius NP says

Hmm.... from what I'm getting from the other posts, I think we need to hash out the system of governance before we can qualify who and what affects it.

So far, I'd say these are the common points we all agree on.

1. Both Guilds and Nobles have a say.

Agreed. But that shouldn't necessarily mean that they're part of the same governance body.

2. Lady Kelvin has the power to overrule the council in some manner.

If people go with that, that's fine but that isn't what I said. All I wanted to say is that Lady Kelvin can make some kinds of laws and council can make other kinds of laws. The kinds of laws the two groups can make should be different but potentially overlapping, in which case the issue is not who has the right to make the laws but who is capable of enforcing the laws.

3. The Mage's Guild, and Military have representatives.

Let's clarify what's meant by "representative." A representative could be someone selected by the group they're representing or they could simply be a person chosen from that group by the individual with the power to appoint. I can tolerate either model but I personally favour the latter option or a mixed system where some representatives are one kind and some the other.

4. The council is a fractitious and chaotic group, all looking to improve their own lot.

Agreed.

1. Division of power between Lady Kelvin and the Council.

I don't care what the division is as long as it's somewhat unclear and the bodies exist in parallel rather than in series.

2. Role of the council - legislative body or advisory?

I'd prefer advisory but would be happy to go either way. If it is legislative, I'd favour a 100% threshold for agreement.

3. Make-up of the council. Who elects or appoints the counsellors? Are they all noble?

I'd hope no council members would be nobles and that nobles' powers would come from the fact that all the land in the city is within the feif of one noble family or another. Thus, a noble with title to southgate could levy taxes on the people living there or make other rules for them but would not be part of any kind of central decision-making structure.

In my ideal model, the castellan (I'd still prefer the title mayor) would choose council members but would be bound by the charter to choose them from certain groups. I can certainly live with some or all being selected by the group they represent but if they are, they should not be elected by popular vote but should be chosen by the individual governing structures of the groups they represent. Thus, the representative of the glazers might be a person chosen by lot, or by heredity, or through some kind of rotation system, etc. while the representative for the merchants might be the person nominated by the head of the merchants' council or...

If counsellors are not "elected", they should be either appointed collectively by the whole council or chosen by the castellan. If they're "elected", I think they should be chosen based on the rules of the group that chooses them; the constitution of the city should be silent on how they're chosen.

4. What power do the nobles have outside of the council? What power within the city? Out of the city?

Here's where my gibberish about how the nobles' authority should work actually cleans things up. Nobles' lands should extend outside the city because they're nobles of Enheim not nobles of the city. They should have more power on their lands outside the city because their powers there won't be curtailed by the city charter. But if a noble sets a poll tax of 1sp per year on each household in their lands, everyone on their lands should pay it regardless of whether they are within or outside the city.

I'd say that most are sort of country retreats more than actually fortified places. The Mor's End walls provides a place of retreat - only an idiot would try and defend his stedding against a serious force. House names.... Kelvin, Kelkios, Franhaig, Oghn, Harrowdale and Vuelth. Antell is no more.

It depends on whether they nobles are created as urban nobles; I would argue that there is are few medieval models for urban aristocracy. Aristocracy should be inherently rural; now, the nobles might spend all their time in the city but their primary residence/seat should still be the rural steading.

(P.S. Fusangite, I'll try and work up the history of Armand Harrowdale into some sort of legend.)

Sounds great.

Anyway, there's my input. Take what you will.

 

[jdavis]

These are the more contentious points.

1. Division of power between Lady Kelvin and the Council.

2. Role of the council - legislative body or advisory?

3. Make-up of the council. Who elects or appoints the counsellors? Are they all noble?

4. What power do the nobles have outside of the council? What power within the city? Out of the city?

1. Division of power should be awkward and have many overlaps, Lady Kelvin's main power should be her political skill in getting what she wants out of the council. The nobles latch on to their privledge to be on the council but really don't know what they are doing half the time, Lady Kelvin's power comes from who she is personally not legally, her presence gets what she wants not some written balance of power. Lady Kelvin does have the power to call up the muster and basically controls the Outland Rangers by putting their advisory seat behind hers and making it subservient to her, this was probably her doing as the Outland Rangers have much power outside the wall to the North and this would balance problems from nobles. She is probably very good at maintaining a appearance of strength which not every lord or lady kelvin before her had. There is no set divisions or written constitutional agreement. the noble lords make the decisions and the Lord or Lady Kelvin position is traditionally First Lord of the council.

2. Both although their advise is worthless. They feel they make the laws but they are being manipulated. It takes a long time to get anything done but Lady Kelvin always gets her way in the end. The council has all legislative power all the first Lord or Lady has is the power to veto and the power to call up the Muster which is the same as calling a military emergency and taking full control. Manipulation of the many diverse forces on the council is her greatest tool.

3. All are Noble, there are hereditary positions that go back to the original tribes and there are the guild positions which are filled by the Nobles with the most power in those areas. The only way a seat can be made vacant is through death or if the holder relinquishes it, the position on the council is for life. The only exceptions is the Generals seat and it is awarded by vote of the council and can be taken away by vote of the council and the two advisory seats. It takes skilled manuvering to get a seat on the council and even the hereditary seats can be relinquished and claimed by another so no seat is truly safe. Many councilmembers have relinquished their seats due to loss of face or power or being outmanuvered or just plain threat of physical murder or injury. The council makes the Thieves Guild look respectable.

4. They have the powers garanteed them which include inclusion into the council by members of the nobility. I wouldn't want to see them split the city up into different armed camps of overlapping control, as that kind of chaos would not be allowed by the military. Other than that they have the power that wealth and clout brings. Outside the city they have much more power but that was balanced a couple of hundred years ago with the creation of the Outland Rangers group which maintains the same laws of the city outside the wall. It's all part of 300 years of whittling away at the nobles powerbase by the Kelvin family, nobody realized just what maintaining the same laws outside the wall meant, they just thought it would help with raids and poachers. It actually extended the rule of the City State into the surrounding countryside and changed their private estates from little independent kingdoms to part of the city as a whole. That kind of manipulation is the basis of the Kelvin families rule in Mor's End.

I'd say that most are sort of country retreats more than actually fortified places. The Mor's End walls provides a place of retreat - only an idiot would try and defend his stedding against a serious force. House names.... Kelvin, Kelkios, Franhaig, Oghn, Harrowdale and Vuelth. Antell is no more.

In medieval times the nobles didn't have to worry about rampaging orcs or goblin raids. Even the calm north is dangerous to a certain extent. City life is much safer, that is the basis for the city aristocracy. The estates are retreats and showplaces but they are not true homes to the nobles anymore. Most nobles allow servants to run the estates and stay in town where it is safe. Retiring to your estate is something a noble does when they have been seriously outmanuvered or shamed in town, it is a kind form of banishment. Older nobles may also move to the estates to live out their last days away from the political chaos of the city. You can throw a big party or festival at your estate you can vaction at your estate but you really don't want to live there long term. This is also why there can be nobles with very little actual land (the Palmora's would actually control some land, their piece of the lake shore where they process silk fish at.)

My two cents worth is getting up towards a dollars worth, I got a paper due in 12 hours so I'll cut this short. (will add a write up on the failing house Haljan of Thomas Haljan; Captain of the Guard tomorrow).

 

[jdavis]

Noble Family: House Haljan

Past
When the Haljan family first came to Mor’s End they were already a noble family. They quickly established themselves in the upper crust of the city and went about building influence in city politics. They established themselves in the trade caravan business and prospered for several generations. Over the years they made many powerful allies and enemies in Mor’s End and became deeply entrenched in its politics. All of this ended nearly 30 years ago when disaster struck house Haljan. As competition got more intense the Haljans kept taking risk with the caravan business in order stay one step ahead but this finally caught up with them. Thelmore Haljan the head of the house took a major risk in sending a heavily laden caravan down the trade route to the coast, he had invested heavily in the caravan and was expecting the huge sell off to keep House Haljan well off for many years to come, but disaster struck as a huge raiding party of Orcs fell on the caravan and utterly destroyed it. The caravan was being led by Thelmore’s brother who had taken his family with him on the trip, they were never seen again. Thelmore knew he had been sold out by one of his political enemies but could not prove who did it. With the last bit of money he could scrape together he led a rescue party into the swamp to try and find his brother’s family, no trace was ever found and Thelmore came down with a horrible fever shortly after he returned and died a broken man less than a month later, his wife died within 3 months of his death many say from a broken heart but more likely it was from the same swamp disease that killed Thelmore. This left his son Thomas as the head of the now destitute household. Thomas liquidated all Haljan holdings in order to get enough money to send his two sisters off to distant relatives in another town and took a post as a common soldier in the military.

Present
Thomas Haljan worked hard to gain promotions and rank in the military and eventually became a member of the elite guard. While this didn’t pay well it did give Thomas enough political clout to find a lesser noble’s second son and a rich merchant’s grandson with whom he helped to arrange marriages for his sisters with. With his family back in town and the name Haljan once again established with some worth Thomas took the post of captain of the guard and worked to become the next General of the Legion of Mor’s End. When the old General was pushed out of office Thomas thought his time had come but he lost out to Sebastiano Palmora a man he had served with for many years and the son of a prominent Noble house. Thomas has not taken this setback well has become bitter towards Palmora.

Future
The future of house Haljan is still in question, Thomas Haljan is not a young man and has not married or produced an heir. He has gained the interest of several rich merchants and guildmembers who view marrying one of their daughters to him as a fast way to nobility for their family but Thomas realizes that once a heir is produced he will no longer have any leverage with the Merchants and lesser nobles of Mor’s End. The current heir to the title of House Haljan is the son of Thomas’s youngest sister (the older sister only has daughters) who is married to a young wealthy merchant who recently took charge of his families business after his grandfather died. This merchant would like nothing more than to see Thomas never produce an heir as his son would then become Lord Haljan and he would gain much political clout and would be able to control a noble house (in his son’s name).

Holdings
House Haljan has no major holdings at present, their future holdings and prosperity seem to be tied to which greedy merchant will be able to control the name through a young Haljan heir. The only thing of value left to the family is the Nobility attached to the name.

 

[Conaill]

I'd say that most are sort of country retreats more than actually fortified places. The Mor's End walls provides a place of retreat - only an idiot would try and defend his stedding against a serious force.

I would say just the opposite, actually. Any unfortified country retreat is likely to get plundered and all its valuable carted away, or simply torched. The countryside around Mor's End is dangerous, and not a place you would leave valuables just laying around...

On the other hand, if the primary function of the land holdings is agriculture/raising sheep, the steddings should primarily be fortified farms. Probably the classical U-shaped design, with a solid gate closing off the top of the "U". Sure, a determined force will still be able to sack such a structure, but the defendors will probably be able to hold their own against a 2-to-1 force, and most smaller bands of raider will rather look for easier prey...

 

[GladiusNP]

I would say just the opposite, actually. Any unfortified country retreat is likely to get plundered and all its valuable carted away, or simply torched. The countryside around Mor's End is dangerous, and not a place you would leave valuables just laying around...

Ah yes, but the orcs all live to the south of the river. None are crossing on the bridges in the city, and to get across the river, they must leave the swamp, pass the city, build a boat, and sail across. Fine for a small force, of five or six, but more difficult when forty or so decide to cross. Not to mention that the banks are patrolled by rangers, the river traffic will see them building their little rafts and canoes, and they'll generally be seen and summarily dispatched. It's impractical to think they cross in force, unless Mor's End's projection of power into the country-side is vastly under what it should be.

Since the northern outland rangers are more involved with property disputes, I think its' safe to say the North is kept relatively peaceful. So fortifications aren't necessary.... which brings us back to the idea of holiday retreats. Sure, the poorest houses still live in small keeps (they haven't been able to upgrade from the time when this was necessary), but the richer ones have nice, kept up manor houses.

Reasons why I'm wrong anyone?

 

[Conaill]

Since the northern outland rangers are more involved with property disputes, I think its' safe to say the North is kept relatively peaceful.

Does not compute. The Outland Rangers should primarily be chasing small groups of raiders, other wise the North will NOT be "relatively peaceful". Who's going to stop a bunch of 10-20 goblins swimming across the river, if the rangers are settling disputes about stray chickens?

Given the small number of Rangers at our disposition, I would say that raids are fairly frequent, even North of the river, although presumably less frequent and smaller than South of the river. Not to mention whatever nasties may be coming out of the mountains to the North! There's a good reason why Mor's End has a strong city wall even around the northern end of the city. This is the Frontier, and there isn't really any safe place to be found except behind a strong set of walls.

 

[GladiusNP]

They are defended, by about 20 guardsmen apeice. That should take care of 5 or 6 goblins. I agree, my statement could be qualified by saying only a fool would defend his stedding agaist a serious force, but small raiding groups are often repulsed. As regards the ranger debate, that's simply what I seemed to remember from the military thread - and that debate was drawn out as well.

I still believe that fortified camps where the nobles routinely hole up from bands of goblins is a mistake. How are any livestock kept alive? Why would anyone build anything beyond the wall? How could the initial settlers even survive?

I think, however, that this is a minor point. Let's just say that some are very well fortified, some aren't. Though a good compromise leaves everyone mad, I don't think it's worth wasting our collective effort on something so trivial in the long run. Agreed?

 

[Conaill]

Well, it makes a big difference on the structure of Mor's End. I'm arguing all the nobility should be based inside the city, you seem to be arguing that their primary seat of power should be outside the walls.

Of course, "fortified camps where the nobles routinely hole up from bands of goblins is a mistake". It's the farmers - who DO need to live outside the walls - who will need to hole up behind the walls of their fortified farms. The nobles owning the land are smart enough to stay safely behind the walls of Mor's End, where the real action is...

 

[GladiusNP]

The problem is, I think it's really a little self-centred of us to just argue our prospective viewpoints to the exclusion of doing any real work on the thread. I think we'll just have to wait for WotP (wizard of the plains) to make his decision/give us some more input. Otherwise we are at a stalemate (You know you are right, I know I am right, we could argue for another hour at least....)

 

[jdavis]

Go to the mall and miss all the fun. I'll jump in here on this one. Are the manor houses defended, yes. Are they fortified, well that depends on where they are located at and when they were built. The older manors will have walls as 300 years ago it wasn't all that safe up North. If they are located near the river or the lake they will most likely have some defenses as that is where trouble generally comes from, and if they are far away from the town and close to the mountains they will have defenses as the Moulntains are still dangerous. If they are a day's ride out of town to the North and they are relatively new they probably have a low wall or fence to mark the border and keep the rif raff out but in general trouble is rare. They will all have guards because they don't want to get robbed and just because the goblins and orcs are to the south doesn't mean that there are no brigands and bandits to the North. Poaching silkfish for example would require several people and some organization, this would be almost like a bandit group, there will be groups out there like that but no there will be no hoards rampaging in the area (unless the DM chooses).

Why do Nobles stay in town, well just how dull would living on a sheep farm in the middle of nowhere be? There will be nobles who live out there but they will be older or reclusive types, the action is in the city, the money is in the city and the power is in the city.

As far as doing the work goes throw in a Noble family and include what they own and how they use it (I did). Everyone will be different, discribe their holdings and how they are set up, we have room for 20 or so of these families to be fleshed out.