EN World City Project: Government Affairs Submissions

[jdavis]

One thing on the herding clans, and I'm sort fo swinging towards Conaill on this, the clan system is all but dead, the power outside the wall has shifted to inside the wall. The noble titles are probably all that is left of the old clan system of the herders. All that remains outside the wall are simple farmers and herders who work for those who own the land from inside the wall. Clan holdings have become noble land holdings and the clan members have either moved to the city or become tennant farmers or workers in the noble's herds. In the last 300 years the economic power has shifted from a rather ugly sheep to trade and goods from the city. The old nobles have either adapted or are just holding on, the old clans they represented have melted away.

As far as a 100% noble council, that could be arranged and not leave the guilds out, if you have the political clout to lead a guild then your family probably had the clout to gain a noble title. The guild leadership should be dominated by the nobles. Both the standing general and his arch rival have noble blood, the general seat is appointed by the council, they could just not elect anybody without noble blood. The two seats held by non-nobles are non-voting seats, the Outland Rangers advisory seat (not located around the table but is behind Lady Kelvin's seat), and the Kul-Moren's ambassadors seat, a non-voting seat gained in the treaty which brought Dwarf guards to the city.

The history of the Outland Rangers suggest that they originally had some clan or noble ties. The Outland Rangers to the North are probably a extension of the nobles rule there, in the South they are Lady Kelvin's means of watching the swamps and the caravan routes. Their seat is subservant to Lady Kelvin's seat thus it's position and lack of vote, the seat is just there to inform and advise.

The history of Kul-Moren suggest that the Ambassadors seat has a lot of political clout but no vote so he sits at the table and speaks for the interest of Kul-Moren.

Any other seat would be a noble who represents some faction or guild. The nobles should dominate the guilds as the guild system has repalced the clan system in prestige and power.

 

[Conaill]

I'd prefer a city council wholly appointed by the castellan or appointed in part by the castellan and in part by the ward governments. I think the way for nobles to have power in this system should be their own direct assertion of jurisdiction not their involvement in a representative process.

I think Lady Kelvin should just make whatever laws she feels like.

Hey, something fusangite and I agree on! Yeah, the current elected City Council sounds way too democratic. Obviously Lady Kelvin needs to work with the Council if she doesn't want to rule as a complete dictator. But in the end, she has the final say about everything, including who gets to sit on the Council. If she feels comfortable enough in her ability to control the Council, she may let is seem as if they're independent and in charge, but in the end, she's the one pulling the strings.

Much closer to a medieval lord than a democracy...

 

[fusangite]

Let me qualify my statement about Lady Kelvin; she should obviously be constrained in her law-making power by the city charter which should set out some jurisdictional parameters but not do so comprehensively.

 

[Tonguez]

Looks good - But I'm still wondering about the 'Foreigners' seat? Who exactly is this foreigner and how are they chosen?

As far as I can see he Dwarfs are in because of Treaty and the Nobles (Herders and Silkfisher) due to Hereditary Rights, the Guildhouses for economic expedience and the Military commander (=Duke btw) because you always keep your big guns closeby

but by what Right is a vague undefined Foreigner there?

(ps for an idea of Nobles and Land tenure - there is a 'Noble' who lives in my home town in New Zealand who collects income from a county in Britain. The Management of his lands is done through employees.

Same thing for the Urban Nobles of Mors End imho- they enjoy the live of the idle rich while there Aides manage the Estates - collecting rents and selling wool- on their behalf)

 

[fusangite]

Looks good - But I'm still wondering about the 'Foreigners' seat? Who exactly is this foreigner and how are they chosen?
but by what Right is a vague undefined Foreigner there?

I think we're too caught up in our modern theories of represenation. If the council is appointed by and serves at the pleasure of the lord or castellan (the model I favour), the position makes much sense. Clearly, the person in charge needs an advisor on how to deal with the large foreign population; I think the idea of picking one special foreigner to do this is a fine idea. However, in thinking about the position, I think we could add some more mystique to it by calling it "the Stranger."

I'm growing increasingly uncomfortable with the idea of voting and voting thresholds to pass motions. While there exists the example of medieval Venice and other republics where such things were practiced, it was much more common (and therefore I think more portable) for bodies like this council to have a threshold of either 100% unanimity or simply the right to "advise" to castellan or lord who actually makes the decision.

 

[fusangite]

As Columbo would say, "One more thing..."

I know most people didn't like the fool idea but I wondered if a tiny shard of it could be preserved through the creation of Fool as an official position that exists in the city. I was thinking such a person would have no power except the right to publicly state things with impunity -- a unique and potent role.

 

[GladiusNP]

Okay, I just want to clarify one or two things that seem to have caused confusion.

1. Some noble houses hold no estates at all. They own houses in the city, but do not have any holdings of note outside of the city, and the city itself is part of the Lady Kelvins estate, so none of them have sovereignty over their homes. House Palmora is the best example. They own their homes as any citizen would, but have no jurisdiction over the enforcement of laws. I can see how the wording was a little awkward, so sorry for that.

2. Harrowdale isn't a population centre. It's basically the residence of House Harrowdale, and has only the workers, a small household guard, and the extended family. Max one hundred people.

3. Estates aren't necessarily anything worthwhile. Most are just grazing lands, with some shepherd's huts, a small manor, and some flocks. Granted, the term estate is probably misleading, so apologies for the confusion. I'd intended these to be the steddings/ranches of the herders. JDavis has it right (or rather, uses the same assumptions I did/have).

4. Private guards vs. standing army. If I ruled a city, anyone who has any sort of group of warriors is going to need to have a charter. If some guy starts pulling together mercenaries or training troops, I'm coming down hard on him. The nobles do have the right to maintain troops. Citizens do not. The wordArmy may be misleading as to the size. Remember that Enheim isn't particularly densely populated, so any standing armies are very small (forty men being the absolute maximum).

5. I stand by trade rights. Landholders should be able to tax people who use their rivers, especially if they station guards or other amenities on the banks. I didn't actually mention roads, since those are built and maintained by the city.

6. Duke = Lady Kelvin. This title was used in the history thread. Sorry for the confusion.

To weigh in on the topics of debate...

I think the Landholders still should be considered the nobles. They've been there the longest, were part of the founding, and have a lot of money. Granted, not every shepherd is a noble, which I should have made clearer, indeed few of the nobles probably do any sort of work in the fields, but the main point is that at one time, they did. Not every Landholder is a noble either, that was the point of removing this stricture, to stop people from buying twenty acres of the swamp, and gaining a title.

Cor Mahael. Happy to change that. Do people feel he should have a title at all? Or happy just to leave him isolated entirely from the city?

Representative council. Ok, if people think this is too americanized, that's probably fair (I lived in the US for 11 years, from when I was 7). I don't feel it is particularly representative in many ways, since the commoners get no say - the military, which is only 1 or 2% of the population, has more influence! I'm happy with whatever is decided with regard to the legislation. Again it is the city of chaos, and the proposed system may not reflect that as well as it should.

That said, if Lady Kelvin is the only law-maker, then why bother with a council? She could have a court of advisors, yes, but going to all the bother to create a council, and have it do nothing but give advice seems sort of silly. Again, my opinion only, YMMV, IMHO, etc., etc., ad nauseum.

 

[Conaill]

Harrowdale isn't a population centre. It's basically the residence of House Harrowdale, and has only the workers, a small household guard, and the extended family. Max one hundred people.

Let's make it 50 at most. Lalaton is only 500 I believe.

Remember that Enheim isn't particularly densely populated, so any standing armies are very small (forty men being the absolute maximum).

Mor's End City Guard is only 60 men. Two houses with 40 soldiers could form a significant threat to Lady Kelvin. How about 20 maximum?

I stand by trade rights. Landholders should be able to tax people who use their rivers, especially if they station guards or other amenities on the banks.

As far as we know, there is only one navigeable river: the one flowing straight through Mor's End, which is a major trade route. I don't think there should be a new toll booth on the river every couple of miles...

Cor Mahael. Happy to change that. Do people feel he should have a title at all? Or happy just to leave him isolated entirely from the city?

I would make him totally isolated. Makes him that much more mysterious.

That said, if Lady Kelvin is the only law-maker, then why bother with a council? She could have a court of advisors, yes, but going to all the bother to create a council, and have it do nothing but give advice seems sort of silly.

The nobles and Guilds do hold significant practical power in the city (probably the Guilds more so that the nobles...) So not only does Lady Kelvin need advisors, she also needs to appease the Council and gain their cooperation. She may or may not have enough personal power to rule as a dictator, but she's smart and politically savvy enough not to do so.

In many current-day democratic kingdoms, the government rules in name of the King, but at least on paper the King still has the power to disband and appoint goverment, refuse to sign any laws, announce Martial Law etc. Lady Kelvin is simply a much earlier, more autocratic version of this.

Good work otherwise, GladiusNP.

 

[jdavis]

For estate residence use Thorp for population (20-80). The nobles would probably be outside of the population breakdown but everything else would fit, that is for the big estates.

20 guard maximum but only a 10 guard maximum within the city walls. Don't mind guards out there but don't need small armies of 20 guards poping up all over the city. You could even go with the 40 guards on the estate but that would be very expensive so 20 would be more realistic.

Cor Mahael probably showed up one day told everybody to keep off his island and went back home. He would probably not care about a title but would push his claim to the small island as his property and being noble would help, heck he might of forgotten just what noble title was given him as long as people stayed off his island, That would of been 300 years ago or so.

As far as the council goes I think they should be hereditary positions or representative positions, they should have vote power but Lady Kelvin can veto any vote at any time. For the city of chaos a strong central government would actually hurt, a bunch of political infighting and backbiting would add to the chaos. It's not a Democracy or even a Republic, it's rich people fighting with noble people on how to screw over the common people who have no say in anything. I'd say that the right to sit council is a Noble privledge only Nobles on the council and guild representatives are Nobles too. It would basically be people with no actual qualifications to make laws or policy bickering over what to do, and Lady Kelvin deftly moving what she wanted throught the council. Chaos would rule the day and shouting matches and throwing things would be common place, Ulfgar Gorkil; Captain of the Elite Guard has been banned from all council meetings and he was just there as a Door Guard for Lady Kelvin.

Oh and I love the Idea of official town appointed Fool. Maybe he is one of the oddities in the current Lady Kelvin's entourage, he could be something deeper or just somebody that makes a old lady laugh.

 

[GladiusNP]

Hmm.... from what I'm getting from the other posts, I think we need to hash out the system of governance before we can qualify who and what affects it.

So far, I'd say these are the common points we all agree on.

1. Both Guilds and Nobles have a say.

2. Lady Kelvin has the power to overrule the council in some manner.

3. The Mage's Guild, and Military have representatives.

4. The council is a fractitious and chaotic group, all looking to improve their own lot.

If someone feels that one of these is not a point they want to see in the Mor's End political structure, then we need to discuss these as well, and they should probably speak up soon.

These are the more contentious points.

1. Division of power between Lady Kelvin and the Council.

2. Role of the council - legislative body or advisory?

3. Make-up of the council. Who elects or appoints the counsellors? Are they all noble?

4. What power do the nobles have outside of the council? What power within the city? Out of the city?

Anyway, I think we should say that about six of the houses are the original gentry. This means that (assuming 20 as an average household guards figure), that there are 120 guardsmen in the lands around the city. This isn't too bad, considering if there is an average of 50 workers on each estate, and the nobles can recruit soldiers from both the city and from other places. So about 300 workers scattered between Kul Moren and Mor's End, wih about 120 guards. Too high? Consider, the walls of Mor's End make it pretty difficult to assault with 120 men, assuming that every single Landholder noble decided to attack the city. They probably couldn't even establish a perimeter than would effectively keep the Mor's End citizenry in the city. These steddings would range from tiny keeps (the smallest house), to fair sized manor houses.

I'd say that most are sort of country retreats more than actually fortified places. The Mor's End walls provides a place of retreat - only an idiot would try and defend his stedding against a serious force. House names.... Kelvin, Kelkios, Franhaig, Oghn, Harrowdale and Vuelth. Antell is no more.

Trade rights? This needs hammering out. I suppose that since we don't know where the various estates are yet, and what sort of forces each has, it's jumping the gun to talk about trade anyway.

I was planning to weigh in on the 4 disputed points above, but have to head off to class. I'll try and post again after work (about nine hours from now).

(P.S. Fusangite, I'll try and work up the history of Armand Harrowdale into some sort of legend.)

(P.P.S. Wiz'o'Plains will probably have something to say as well...)