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Essentials: Magic Item Rarity Explained, it's actually good!

keterys

First Post
But by the rules of 4e, Frodo can't possibly have that 26th-level item.

By the rules of 4E, he wouldn't be in the same party with Aragorn who wouldn't be in the same party with Gandalf.

I'm sure Smaug could very well have been an epic-level red dragon and his hoard included an epic suit of armor for Bilbo, who could gift it to Frodo.

Which I guess is my feeling about "Rare" items. The mithril shirt is mostly a FLAVOR thing on a fighter character like Frodo. When juiced out with the powers you listed, it's a nice, character-defining item. And it's one that doesn't break the power-curve.

Yep. Now do Boromir's Horn, and you'll have a lot more difficulty really making it Rare-worthy. Especially since he wasn't blowing it all over the place.

One idea I've had is to flatten the cost curve of magic items to eliminate the 1:5 trading of high-level items. Aside from the "magic item market" problem, why doesn't it work this way?

Uncommons sell for 50%, Rares for 100%. So... now it does work that way?

Otherwise, if you're comparing a +1 Uncommon Sword (5th, sells for 500g) to a +2 Common Sword (6th, buys for 1800g, sells for 360g)... less than a x5 starts actually looking odd, since people will almost always take the extra +1.
 

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Someone

Adventurer
I'm sure Smaug could very well have been an epic-level red dragon and his hoard included an epic suit of armor for Bilbo, who could gift it to Frodo.

Nah, he went down with just 1 arrow. Clearly a minion, though he had an AC so high that no one managed to hit him before Bard.
 

UngainlyTitan

Legend
Supporter
Nah, he went down with just 1 arrow. Clearly a minion, though he had an AC so high that no one managed to hit him before Bard.
Interestig one, in earlier edtions Smaug's death would be accounted by a save or die effect on Bards arrow but in 4e you would have to go with minion to Bard with high defences that the special arrow allows him to overcome but the rest of Laketown Smaug is a badass level +3 solo.

A true Heisen-monster whose stats depends on the level of the characters interacting with it. :lol:
 

Someone

Adventurer
Interestig one, in earlier edtions Smaug's death would be accounted by a save or die effect on Bards arrow but in 4e you would have to go with minion to Bard with high defences that the special arrow allows him to overcome but the rest of Laketown Smaug is a badass level +3 solo.

A true Heisen-monster whose stats depends on the level of the characters interacting with it. :lol:

Actually I forgot to put the [tongueincheek] tags.

I just missed the discussion about what level, race and templates Gandalf had.
 

By the rules of 4E, he wouldn't be in the same party with Aragorn who wouldn't be in the same party with Gandalf.

I'm sure Smaug could very well have been an epic-level red dragon and his hoard included an epic suit of armor for Bilbo, who could gift it to Frodo.



Yep. Now do Boromir's Horn, and you'll have a lot more difficulty really making it Rare-worthy. Especially since he wasn't blowing it all over the place.



Uncommons sell for 50%, Rares for 100%. So... now it does work that way?

Otherwise, if you're comparing a +1 Uncommon Sword (5th, sells for 500g) to a +2 Common Sword (6th, buys for 1800g, sells for 360g)... less than a x5 starts actually looking odd, since people will almost always take the extra +1.

Which of course all just illustrates the impossibility of comparing literary magic to RPG magic.

Consider, the Phial of Galadriel had a SEVERE effect on Shelob. This was described as far more than just the effects of a light source, it was the holy light of the Star lady herself 'A Elbereth Gilthoniel...' but literary magic lacks any requirement to follow some set of rules. In a D&D game, even one built to the setting conventions of Middle Earth you'd have a pretty hard time creating a sensible narrative that followed the books and made any sense in game terms. The point being I don't think you can meaningfully discuss the rarity system in 4e in terms of literary magic. You couldn't really discuss it in terms of any other edition's rules either. However it will give the DM a way to create a more interesting narrative than is possible using the current rules straight out of the book.

I think rarity will come in handy. I'm not sure it really can exactly replace daily item use restrictions, but that will vary from table to table. It's a workable system at any rate.
 

JohnSnow

Hero
Yeah, the point of my comparison wasn't to do a point-by-point conversion of The Lord of the Rings to Dungeons & Dragons. It was to point out that even in that work, some items exist that are just more special than others.

In most fantasy fiction, these categories can be hard to sport. However, both artifacts and signature non-artifact items show up routinely. Generally, artifacts drive the story, whereas rare items are those still special items unique to the main hero.

Uncommon is the hard category, as sometimes it's hard to tell when something is "uncommon" rather than "common," or "rare." To steal again from Tolkien, Sting and Glamdring (& Orcrist too) would probably count as uncommon items, possessing special powers to detect orcs/goblins. They're more unique than the simple "magic swords" in the story, like the blades the hobbits find in the Barrow Downs (pretty clearly common). But there are 3 of them, with nearly the same properties, so they're hardly "Rare."

As should be obvious, high-level common (or uncommon) items tend to be "rare" in low-level campaigns. On further reflection, I think I'd put the mithril shirt in this category. While rare, t's not a "Rare" item, it's just a near Epic-level "Common" item in a high heroic (or low Paragon) campaign.

As for Smaug? Unless Black Razor is an arrow of slaying, it's gotta be a combination of a critical hit, and lots of stacked up damage.

Granted, a 21st-level ranger can do like...100+ damage on a crit. But that's a drop in the bucket to an Elder Red Dragon. Granted, it might just have been the finishing shot. But yeah, the implication is that Black Razor is a slaying arrow.
 

Pssthpok

First Post
The phial of Galadriel was, well... a phial, obviously, but it was filled with well water that had captured the light of Earendil. Earendil was the 1st Age hero born of all the major bloodlines: Maia, Noldo, Sinda and Adan. He was able to get the Valar to come over to Middle-earth and crush Melkor because he sailed the seas while wearing a Silmaril on his brow.

Mind you, the Silmarils were jewels created by Feanor, the high prince of the Noldor, way before they even started counting years. These jewels captured the light of the Trees of Valinor - the only light in the world at the time. It's said that the Silmarils were the greatest work of art in all of history, save the actions of the Valar (who crafted the world itself).

After Earendil reached Valinor, they gave him a boat so he could sail the night sky and watch the borderlands of the Void, in case Melkor ever tried to reenter the world.

Nothing about the Phial or the light contained therein is Common or Uncommon. That thing is 100% Rare/Artifact level magic.
 

Pssthpok

First Post
Smaug I put down to an old houserule: the 20-20-kill.
Roll a 20, confirm on a 20, dead. No quesitons asked.

In 4E, the rules don't allow for that sort of thing, but Bard's "black arrow" was a legendary thing. I'd go so far as to say that (in 4E terms) it was some sort of slaying arrow that dealt bloodied damage to its target on a hit (save ends). Bard got a lucky shot, Smaug dropped to 50% health, failed his save and died.

The same sort of thinking resolves the Eowyn/Merry/Witch-king issue. Merry's blade was enchanted against the Witch-king and Eowyn was a woman (fulfilling Glorfndel's prophetic pronouncement). Merry's attack dealt 50% health, Eowny finished him off.
 

Pssthpok

First Post
Boromir's horn was probably a mundane item characteristic of the Captain of Gondor. When orcs heard it, they pooped a little. When the Gondorians found it split in half, they pooped a little as well.
 

Pssthpok

First Post
In any case, Tolkien's work is replete with examples of people having items way beyond their "level" of power. Gollum alone is a perfect example of someone breaking all sorts of wealth-by-level rules, so any D&D adaptation would have to reassess those rules and act in accordance with the spirit of the story over the spirit of the rules.

Sorry for so many replies; I read this thread backwards :D
 

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