Frank Mentzer's Worlds of Empyrea Kickstarter to be Rebooted!

The Kickstarter for Frank Mentzer's Worlds of Empyrea was ambitious, and sadly it didn't seem to gain the traction it needed to raise the $250K it was asking for. Indeed, Kicktraq is currently predicting it won't make its funding goal; so far it has raised just over a fifth of its target. However, all is not lost - because it's being rebooted! (thanks to Terradave for the scoop).

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The reboot, which will take place on Monday, October 16th, will have a much lower funding goal, quicker delivery time, and expanded PDF offerings. Frank posted the following update:

Greetings all.

We're rebooting the Empyrea Kickstarter.

In my first-ever KS I made several miscalculations, so we're fixing them. The Team have discussed options and we're all set. Here are the highlights:

• Realistic (lower) goal, carefully analyzed for maximum quality and cost-efficiency (alernate printing sources, etc.)
• Realistic delivery time (next Fall, not Summer)
• Expanded Living Campaign online at all levels (not just Nobles)
• Expanded PDF benefits and options for all

Sorry about that, but now we know how to do this right. Thanks again for your support.

So here are some details from the Team.

—Frank

This was followed by an update from Mike Myler, who is handing the social media aspect of the campaign.

Hello everybody! It’s Mike!

In the rush of his lifelong campaign setting being fully realized and shared with the world, Frank’s zeal to make Empyrea have a massive print run with a huge impact got the better of him and bowled me right over. Rightly so—I’ve gotten to sit in on his weekly game, I’ve read the internal documents for it, and it’s a really fantastic place ripe for adventure especially with the huge scope involved. In addition to that a lot of amazing people from the industry came out of the woods to get on board with the project as soon as they got wind of it and did so right up to the night before launch. In the mix of Empyrea being finalized and a widening roster of contributors, the full breadth of Frank’s vision was shadowed by the needs of firming up work agreements and other business concerns.

This last week we’ve worked hard to refine the focus on things and make sure everyone clearly understands the expansive, involved, and frankly ground-breaking gaming phenomenon that Frank has laid out here. It is still a complicated affair—a box set fantasy setting with multiple books and compatibility with 10 RPGs, a medieval campaign world that’s approachable but still filled with fantastic underpinnings he’s spent 40 years refining, all done by an epic team from the industry’s history, an expansive online campaign simultaneously played by citizens and nobles from across the globe—but we’re hoping that it’s clearly presented now and that we can exceed our revised, smaller print run goal to realize Frank’s larger dream.

So, October 16th is the date.

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[Shasarak]

Here is the message:

My Quandary, and Turning Off the Lights
Posted by Frank Mentzer (Creator)
To find a new game we have to find an ad or hear folks talk. The talk is usually about the big sellers, the usual fare. We have to prowl to find new ideas, and carefully follow posts. The great game magazines of the past have vanished.
I support local game stores and the network that makes them possible. I concede that lower prices (barely, with shipping) are available online. But I can’t try the game online, and sometimes I can at the local store. (Not at the Big Store, of course, forget them.) If the price is just a little higher, please support your neighbor.
I love variety. You’ll find me playing and trying all sorts of games at most of the conventions I attend. I try to support and talk about the great variety that’s been around for 17 years (broad perspective, sorry) due to the OGL Open Game License of 2000, which produced Osric and Pathfinder and then ideas from a thousand other talents with a mutual love for tabletop gaming.
Over time I’ve come to support variety and options, for all of us, over specific game systems. My former support for narrow factions, be they new or old school, has ebbed. Thus, some hostility from related sites has also arisen… action/reaction imho. (They have what they want, and are hostile to change. I do suggest that we respect their choices, leave them be, and move on.)
Empyrea is a project to publish my campaign world for the category of Fantasy Role Playing (not just one faction). It must be realistically designed so that it can exist in the current environment. I assembled a team to handle the many parts of the project. Then we tried a crowdfunding platform, but that didn’t work. (I’ll address one recurrent objection in a bit).
It’s been a learning process, and we’ve decided to refocus on the unique and complex setting and restructure the funding. The work continues; just ask the team members. And I’m a hard-core hobby gamer and I’m going to get a Darlene map of my campaign one way or another. ;>
Here’s a promise. All of my team must be properly compensated, and everybody I work with should benefit in other ways (pages & links). Next: If I can add games and profits to the existing hobby shops, local game conventions, small game manufacturers, and the rest of the real world of our tabletop gaming community, that will be my #1 choice every time. I will not circumvent them to chase greater profits. Empowerment and team-building is the name of my game, not cut-throat old-school business.
Thus, I will not use crowdfunding to circumvent the hobby for my personal benefit.
Crowdfunding may still be an option in early creation stages, to muster those of like pioneering spirit. That’s why crowdfunding was first created. Naysayers have shouted down this attempt, but over 650 like-minded souls did step up. Thus, it’s doable here on a small scale, but not as a large project. And now we finally come to my ‘controversial’ stance on what crowdfunding become to some. You’ve been burned. Amateurs and money-hunters have taken your money and never delivered. Worse yet, some big names in the history of our hobby stumbled on the platform (crowdfunding itself). So you want more security, more safety. The sites won’t deliver that of course, they want profits, not liabilities. So you tighten up, only back sure things, with finished covers, mostly or fully written, preferably in full layout, and not less – even when the author has written dozens of published works.
In saying “I only back finished products” some are telling creators to sell out… to create corporations with investors, or go borrow large sums personally, and pre-fund everything before it goes public. The product doesn’t need your ideas or participation (just your money), will sell online via Kickstarter or otherwise, and those on top can keep all the profit for themselves and just use the community for advertising. But: I will not use crowdfunding to circumvent the hobby for my personal benefit.
I don’t expect you to change, I just fundamentally disagree. You get to make your own choices. So put it behind us, and let’s get back to gaming.
At Loxley our work continues, and the website will see changes soon. We’ll be around, one way or another, building a world for others to use.
And thus, this attempt must now be concluded. This Kickstarter project is over.
Keep on gaming, check in at our website, and stay in touch.
Sadly going back to work...
Frank Mentzer

 

[pickin_grinnin]

In saying “I only back finished products” some are telling creators to sell out… to create corporations with investors, or go borrow large sums personally, and pre-fund everything before it goes public.

That's not what people are saying.

Given how long he has been working on his world, it's not unreasonable to want to see some sample of it, or (at the very least) a good overview of the flavor of the world, what types of things makes it different from other similar worlds. That's stuff that doesn't require much of a monetary investment, if any. You don't have to put a fully completed project out there, but you do need to give people some idea of what they're buying.

I'm not sure what he means by Kickstarter "circumventing the hobby" for his "personal benefit." It sounds like Mr. Mentzer still doesn't understand the dynamics of Kickstarter.

 

[Vicente]

Sadly his answer just shows that he doesn't understand Kickstarter. Most people don't have an unlimited budget, so they have to choose what to back, and of course they are going to back projects that have more information, from people with solid KS credentials, that look more professional and more probable to deliver. Unless you are a huge fan of something or someone and you back anything no questions asked (that happens), the big majority of people have to research a little before backing.

Backers understand that producing art, layout, proofreading... for a game is expensive. We understand also that writing a manuscript costs money, but if you think KS is to get you from 0% done to 100% done then well, other people are starting at 50% done and look much better so they are going to get the money instead of you, and you are going to get comments about how weak your presentation is.

Also, for me personally, as a backer, if the creator doesn't care/believe enough on his own project to have spend part of his time/money on a written document before going to KS, and that person doesn't have a proven track record, that's a red flag that the KS is not going to deliver. If you don't put time on working before the KS, then money is only going to motivate you so far, and when hits the fan (life gets complicated, contractors let you down...) and backers are complaining you have a lot of chances to fold.

I prefer supporting people who have done their work. For my own good, as I don't want to throw money away, and for those hardworking creators to reward their passion and so they can continue creating great projects; and for the creators that don't put the work, not supporting them is a good thing, because there are very few things more terrible than a KS going wrong and having hundreds or thousands of people angry at you online.

 

[Elvish Lore]

I don't care how "foundational" Frank's work is to the hobby, given his alleged sexually harassing behavior towards former Paizo project coordinator Jessica Price (which she documented on Twitter) and his awful threats to destroy Dragonsfoot (which, they too documented), I won't be supporting anything authored by Frank Mentzer.

 

[Shasarak]

Personally Frank being baited by some Dragonfoot Trolls would not adversely effect my decision to back any of his products.

 

[Lord_Blacksteel]

No point of contention in that of course having more information is better. I can't help but think a bit of it stems from the generation. Gygax being kicked from his own company and the generally shady feeling that all the historical information about the early days of DnD could create a sensation of being over-protective about a work, and I can get that sensation.

I can see being around that episode in particular might cause one to be more protective of it. Makes a lot of sense.

I'm a bit biased, and not ashamed to admit it - my early DnD years in Greyhawk are the foundation of my gaming experience. Just being a sister continent to Greyhawk, even if it -feels- like Greyhawk, I'm on board, because it'd be new content in a similar vein. That being said, I do hope they find a happy middle ground between protecting their hard work and giving potential customers the needed information to be hooked. It's nice to sell to nostalgia - even better to sell to a wider audience and bring in new people to enjoy the 'old feel' based on its merits.

I started with Holmes Basic and the Greyhawk Folio was the only campaign setting we had for years once it came out. I still have a pair of the poster maps up on my game room wall. So I'm a GH fan myself but that's another issue I had with this whole thing - "Oh it's tied to Greyhawk" except:

• It's an entirely different, heretofore unseen and unmentioned, continent unrelated to the Flanaess
• It's separated by an ocean ruled by a kingdom of giant squids so no easy crossover with GH (mentioned by Frank)
• It has completely different gods (mentioned by Frank)
• It has no political or racial connections (at least mentioned thus far) to any nation in Greyhawk.

So, there is literally no connection to Greyhawk, nothing that ties it to the setting we've been playing in for 37 years. Heck, considering it uses at least part of one Judges Guild map it has more of a connection to the Wilderlands or the CSIO than it does Greyhawk. I noticed they pulled back from making this association once the KS actually started but it has come up in various chats and discussions about the project and it's disingenuous at best. Gary's not here any more to say "Yep, that's part of Greyhawk", WOTC certainly isn't going to say it, and from everything they have shared it has as many in-game ties to GH as the Forgotten Realms does.

And now the project has cratered with Frank blaming everyone else for its failure. It's incredibly disappointing.

And now we finally come to my ‘controversial’ stance on what crowdfunding become to some. You’ve been burned. Amateurs and money-hunters have taken your money and never delivered. Worse yet, some big names in the history of our hobby stumbled on the platform (crowdfunding itself). So you want more security, more safety. The sites won’t deliver that of course, they want profits, not liabilities. So you tighten up, only back sure things, with finished covers, mostly or fully written, preferably in full layout, and not less – even when the author has written dozens of published works.

I haven't been burned. No one has taken my money and not delivered. I'm up over 30 projects backed and I've never had one that funded not deliver. That's not because I'm particularly lucky or smart - it's because I did some basic research before I started throwing money at these things. It's not difficult to pick up some common red flags that signal a Kickstarter that's likely to deliver way late, or never deliver at all. Guess what? Your project had a bunch of them! And look how it turned out!

Oh and "Amateurs" - right. Not at all like the "Pros" who ran this thing right into the ground.

So put it behind us, and let’s get back to gaming.

On this at least, I think we can all agree.

 

[Ancalagon]

I don't care how "foundational" Frank's work is to the hobby, given his alleged sexually harassing behavior towards former Paizo project coordinator Jessica Price (which she documented on Twitter) and his awful threats to destroy Dragonsfoot (which, they too documented), I won't be supporting anything authored by Frank Mentzer.

Some people stopped working for him when word came out: http://tedfauster.com/2017/10/18/fallen-hero-the-end-of-my-business-relationship-with-frank-mentzer/

Imagine that, quitting a job over someone's else sexual harassment. Takes courage.

 

[Xaelvaen]

• It's an entirely different, heretofore unseen and unmentioned, continent unrelated to the Flanaess
• It's separated by an ocean ruled by a kingdom of giant squids so no easy crossover with GH (mentioned by Frank)
• It has completely different gods (mentioned by Frank)
• It has no political or racial connections (at least mentioned thus far) to any nation in Greyhawk.

Fair points, I too noticed that after the initial interview about the upcoming Kickstarter, they quickly backed off of the links to Greyhawk. I was hoping more for the feel and similar creative vein. I would have ignored what I didn't like and used what I did to attach the two locations in a more meaningful way - just like I always do with DnD products in general.

Regardless, a sad day in gaming indeed.

 

[bruce_lombardo]

While I'm hoping that they do have some retractions on 'links' to Greyhawk, I am looking very forward to seeing this evolve. I was very interested in this project the last time, and if he ties everything to the City-State of the Invincible Overlord, or even ties it to Mystara...sold. I'm appreciative to Greyhawk and things detailed in that world. But the more obscure ancient stuff...I'm happy to run in my games.