From Bespoke to Universal: Let's Talk About TTRPG Systems and Themes

[overgeeked]

Most (but not all) bespoke “system matters” games have far, far fewer rules and lower page count than universal systems. They are, by design, easy to learn and some are in fact optimized for one shots.

You keep repeating that phrase as if it means something. What are, to you, games that are "bespoke system matters games"?

In addition the refusal to learn new systems (other than your favorite universal system) stunts your growth as a player and GM.

No, not refusal. It's a question of time. I've been playing and learning various RPGs for 40 years now. When someone actually comes up with something new, I'll sit up and pay attention...buy it, devour it, and gleefully steal the interesting bits and stuff them in my toolbox for later use. Most bespoke systems are minor variations on a theme at this point. The new elements are few and far between. There's no need to constantly jump from system to system.

 

[Joshua Randall]

I’m not going to rehash the entire thread. Go read it and stop being so confrontational. I also don’t care how long you’ve been playing nor your… shoe… size.

 

[Thomas Shey]

you keep misrepresenting me in what I assume is a deliberate attempt to tilt at strawmans. Most (but not all) bespoke “system matters” games have far, far fewer rules and lower page count than universal systems. They are, by design, easy to learn and some are in fact optimized for one shots.

In addition the refusal to learn new systems (other than your favorite universal system) stunts your growth as a player and GM.

This latter makes an assumption that "growth" in this area is a virtue. I don't think that's the given you're suggesting it is.

 

[Campbell]

I think the idea that game X is bespoke whole game Y is more general relies on a flawed conceit - that the sole purpose of a roleplaying games rules is only to represent a type of fiction well. In that view a Mutants and Masterminds game where you follow the adventures of a young superhero team is seen as a substitute for a game of Masks, but once you actually look beyond the fiction and look at the differences in gameplay you have phenomenally different games that are structured differently, bring players' attention to different parts of the fiction, reward different sorts of play. In terms of play experience, one is not more bespoke than the other. The actual game part could not be more different.

 

[payn]

I think the idea that game X is bespoke whole game Y is more general relies on a flawed conceit - that the purpose of a roleplaying games rules is only to represent a type of fiction well. In that view a Mutants and Masterminds game where you follow the adventures of a young superhero team is seen as a substitute for a game of Masks, but once you actually look beyond the fiction and look at the differences in gameplay you have phenomenally different games that are structured differently, bring players' attention to different parts of the fiction, reward different sorts of play. In terms of play experience, one is not more bespoke than the other. The actual game part could not be more different.

Well, Mutants and Masterminds can do teen emo sups, but it can also do a variety of other sup stories. Its generic, where Masks is pretty specific to the experience its attempting to provide. You can file off the serial number of Masks and try to run Avengers with it, but it wont be as flexible as Mutants and Masterminds.

 

[Campbell]

Well, Mutants and Masterminds can do teen emo sups, but it can also do a variety of other sup stories. Its generic, where Masks is pretty specific to the experience its attempting to provide. You can file off the serial number of Masks and try to run Avengers with it, but it wont be as flexible as Mutants and Masterminds.

What I would say is that you can play a game featuring emotional teenage superheroes in Mutants and Masterminds, but still will not be Masks. One is not like a replacement for the other. The core loops of play, the things the mechanics reinforce, the focus on the characters' sense of identity and their lack of ability to control their emotions/powers will not be as present. Wherein Mutants and Masterminds a lot more focus on the specifics of their powers will be present. The actual experience of playing is going to differ dramatically.

One has a larger breadth of premise, but they both have a similar yet different breadth of gameplay.

Because they can exhibit similar fictional spaces does not make them substitutes. How we get there plays just as important a role as the destination we arrive at (although I would also argue that the destinations that we would get to would be assuredly different).

In short choosing a game is not choosing a particular sort of fiction. It's also choosing a game that its own particular play process, reward systems and interactions that should be part of what we consider when evaluating the value any particular game brings to the table. The flexibility prism almost always loses sight of how a game actually plays at the table.

 

[soviet]

"It's not what a movie is about, it's how it is about it" - Roger Ebert

 

[Thomas Shey]

In short choosing a game is not choosing a particular sort of fiction. It's also choosing a game that its own particular play process, reward systems and interactions that should be part of what we consider when evaluating the value any particular game brings to the table. The flexibility prism almost always loses sight of how a game actually plays at the table.

On the other hand, its possible to view more general games as still rewarding some of those same things, just not as strongly. If you disagree, you do, but I do, indeed, think you can get some of the same play-cycle out of the Hero System as Monsterhearts, it'll just require some extra work. As such, there are other questions in play which you'd be wanting to use for the "society of young monsters" game, with it usually leaning to Monsterhearts.

 

[Campbell]

On the other hand, its possible to view more general games as still rewarding some of those same things, just not as strongly. If you disagree, you do, but I do, indeed, think you can get some of the same play-cycle out of the Hero System as Monsterhearts, it'll just require some extra work. As such, there are other questions in play which you'd be wanting to use for the "society of young monsters" game, with it usually leaning to Monsterhearts.

I'd have to know more about what you mean. We likely have very different reads on Monsterhearts. Like Monsterhearts (from my vantage point) is not really all that much about being a monster except in the way that all teenagers can be monsters. It's much more a game about messy teen romance and dealing with cliquish high school social hierarchies. The monster part is mostly metaphor for the parts of yourself you are afraid of. Its reward systems are mostly focused on the teen romance and social hierarchy stuff.

I do think there are very solid reasons to pick a different game for that sort of setting if you are not going for the awkward messy supernatural teen romance vibe and want more action-adventure stuff or even if (from a gameplay-oriented perspective) you want a more GM mediated sort of teen romance (and where you as a player had more say in your character's emotional state).

 

[Thomas Shey]

I'd have to know more about what you mean. We likely have very different reads on Monsterhearts. Like Monsterhearts (from my vantage point) is not really all that much about being a monster except in the way that all teenagers can be monsters. It's much more a game about messy teen romance and dealing with cliquish high school social hierarchies. The monster part is mostly metaphor for the parts of yourself you are afraid of. Its reward systems are mostly focused on the teen romance and social hierarchy stuff.

But see, it seems clearly aimed at certain sorts of media, and I think it does a fine job with some parts of those media and pretty so-so jobs with others (but note, I've not been impressed with the way pretty much any PbtA game handles combat, so you have to see my responses through that lens).

I do think there are very solid reasons to pick a different game for that sort of setting if you are not going for the awkward messy supernatural teen romance vibe and want more action-adventure stuff or even if (from a gameplay-oriented perspective) you want a more GM mediated sort of teen romance (and where you as a player had more say in your character's emotional state).

My point is if I'm aiming at those genres, I want both. The Vampire Diaries and Legacies was not about one or the other.