Going back to 3.5... Any ideas to 4e-ify it?

[BryonD]

Heh. I'm a fan of making fall hurt more at all levels.

I've been using 1d6 per 10 feet.
BUT...
1s count as Con damage instead of HP damage.

 

[Aus_Snow]

How do you implement minions? Obviously, make them go down in a single hit. But do you simply swap in 2 minion creatures where you would normally have 1? (or 3? 4?)

Well, I didn't start by calling them minions, but they're functionally similar, and I've been using those rules for a while now, since before 4e, at any rate. I went with 1 HP per HD, and some other simplification/toning down. As for how they work out maths-wise, I've tended to use UK's Immortals Handbook appendix where necessary, otherwise simply eyeballing it. Suffice to say, numbers vary quite a bit. Regarding 'one hit to go down', I figured that characters of roughly equivalent/appropriate level (with stats, spells, items and so forth accordingly) would be able to accomplish this with ease, even though - now there's the 4e comparison, with 1 HP - it might seem less likely for that to happen. It's worked out as it should, in actual play. On the flipside, there's the 'elite' with max. HP per HD, and some other simple increases. Again, not called that.

Also, agreed on 1:1 diagonals. It's one of the things I just flat out dislike about 4e - which game, despite my refusal to buy it, has other features I can see as being quite neat.

 

[Kerrick]

Kind of a hugemongous table, but I see what you mean. I wonder if it would work being broken into categories of, say level 1 - 3, level 4 - 6, etc.

Check out Upper Krust's Challenging Challenge Ratings, v5 - it's got what you're looking for. He does it by granting XP according to the EL, not the CR (which is how it should be, IMO). This accounts for all the factors - monsters, terrain, condition of the party, etc.

 

[Remathilis]

How do you implement minions? Obviously, make them go down in a single hit. But do you simply swap in 2 minion creatures where you would normally have 1? (or 3? 4?)

I was considering for a quick and dirty method; reducing hp to 1 (or 1/hd), fixing damage at 1/2 dice + bonus, and reducing the appropriate CR by 1 or 2 points. It would be a definite "work int progress: thing...

So an orc grunge (3rd level warrior) would have 1 (or 3) hp, do 9 points of damage with his great-axe and str, and be CR 1 for purposes of XP. It would be a lot of eyeballing.

I'm not fond of 1:1 diagonals. In 4E, with a lot of area effects to track on the battlemat, it makes things a lot easier. But unless you're adding a marking mechanic to your 3E game, 1:1 diagonals remove your defender-types' ability to defend, because bad guys can easily move around them (avoiding AoOs) to get to your spellcasters and other vulnerable party members.

Point taken. I was looking at a marking mechanic, but I can't find any that fit with 3e. The other concern would be "firecubes" in 3e; perhaps keeping the silly 1,2,1,2 diagonals is worth it...

 

[szilard]

I've begun considering some of this stuff on my blog, lately.

One of the big complaints about 3.x was how unbalanced the game could become given the ability and propensity of some players to create mechanically optimized builds. It is pretty clear that this was a major consideration in the creation of 4e.

One solution to 4e-ify 3.5 might be to place caps on things. Examples:

Maximum result on any d20 roll = (2xECL) + 25

This would apply to skill rolls, attack rolls, caster level checks, saving throws, etc. If your actual roll exceeds this, just use the maximum.

Maximum damage to a single enemy in a single attack = (5 x ECL) +15
Attacks that were optimized to do damage beyond this level would still have value insofar as they'd be maxing out on damage more often than other attacks, but it would cut down on the massive imbalance that is currently possible. (This could be scaled for AoE attacks - I'd suggest, maybe, 4xECL+15 off the top of my head for area effect spells that fill 9 or fewer squares and 3xECL+15 for larger areas of effect.)

-Stuart

 

[Greg K]

1. Armor and Weapon Proficiencies: Armor and weapon proficiencies from a class cannot be obtained by multiclassing. They are only granted to a first level character. After first level, a characte can only acquire new armor and weapon proficiency via feats (including bonus feats). No more dipping into martial class to bypass spending feats. Maybe, consider using weapon groups from Unearthed Arcana in combination with this and knocking clerics back one level of armor proficiency.

2. Saving Throws: All saves use a single progression based upon the poor table. A character's initial class grants a +2 bonus for each good save category granted. A character cannot receive the +2 save bonus from a class via multiclassing. A player wanting a permanent save bonus after first level should consider taking an appropriate feat (e.g, Iron Will or Lightning reflexes).

 

[Noumenon]

educing hp to 1 (or 1/hd)

1 hp per hd for minions sounds like a fine idea to eliminate the Magic Missile problem.

 

[CharlesRyan]

I was considering for a quick and dirty method; reducing hp to 1 (or 1/hd), fixing damage at 1/2 dice + bonus, and reducing the appropriate CR by 1 or 2 points. It would be a definite "work int progress: thing...

Reducing the CR by 2 would be the same as letting you swap in 2 minion versions of a creature where you would normally have 1 regular version. (In the case of your example, 2 minion orcs at CR 1 gives you an EL 3 combo, the same as a single CR 3 regular orc.)

But is that the right ratio? In 4E, 4 minions = 1 regular creature. Does the 4:1 ratio work in 3E?

 

[Noumenon]

reducing hp to 1 (or 1/hd)

Reducing minions to 1/hd hitpoints would be a partial solution to the Magic Missile problem.

 

[Voadam]

How do you implement minions? Obviously, make them go down in a single hit. But do you simply swap in 2 minion creatures where you would normally have 1? (or 3? 4?)



I'm not fond of 1:1 diagonals. In 4E, with a lot of area effects to track on the battlemat, it makes things a lot easier. But unless you're adding a marking mechanic to your 3E game, 1:1 diagonals remove your defender-types' ability to defend, because bad guys can easily move around them (avoiding AoOs) to get to your spellcasters and other vulnerable party members.

I have to go on anecdote from my brother who plays 4e as I have not yet, but he said the difference was surprisingly noticeable in making PC movement decisions. Using 1/1 diagonals took out an extra calculation in figuring movement and made estimating roughly how far you can go easier to do at a glance without stopping to do the double counts.

Less table calculation = better gaming experience IMO.