Grappling with Six Saving Throws

[Lorehead]

The latest Design & Development column (which anyone who hangs out on this forum ought to read) brought up the topic of grappling. David Noonan’s experience pretty much matches my own. The sad part is, all the complexity is worthless because the result nearly always turns out to be a foregone conclusion: you can’t do anything, because the monster has an unbeatable grapple check. This has led me to dig up an old idea I had for a simpler, fairer system. It developed out of another idea which I’ve shared elsewhere in a more primitive form: saving throws for each ability score. Again, these rules could use lots of playtesting and comments from informed people like you.

Saving Throws

There are six kinds of saving throws, one for each ability score. Saving throws are always rolls of 1d20 + base save bonus + ability modifier + other bonuses. A natural 20 always succeeds on a saving throw, and a natural 1 always fails. A saving throw represents your attempt to resist some effect. You may voluntarily fail any saving throw if you wish. The game calls some effects “harmless,” which means that you skip the saving throw by default. You can resist a harmless effect if you want, but most people won’t ever want to. Unconscious characters don't attempt saving throws against harmless effects (which is fortunate, since these include most healing spells).

Unlike attack rolls or skill checks, you don’t choose to roll a saving throw. The DM will tell you when to roll one, and what kind of saving throw to roll. Each type of saving throw applies to a different set of situations. Here are a few examples of each:

Strength saving throw: Standing up to a bull rush, holding on to a rope, stopping a sliding-wall trap from crushing you, keeping your head above the water, grappling.
Dexterity saving throw: Dodging a fireball, grabbing a tree branch as you fall from a cliff, jumping from platform to platform, catching an arrow
Constitution saving throw: Resisting poison, surviving a disintegrate spell
Intelligence saving throw: Anticipating where a ray that’s too fast to dodge will hit before it fires, exploiting a pattern, escaping a maze spell, realizing that someone has cast scry on you
Wisdom saving throw: Spotting a flaw in an illusion, shaking off an enchantment through force of will
Charisma saving throw: Being lucky, being saved by a higher power, not looking foolish in a potentially embarrassing situation, ignoring an alignment-based effect

Base Saving Throw Bonus:
There are three saving throw progressions: good, average and poor. Each class uses one of these saving throw progressions for each type of saving throw. Your base saving throw bonus for a kind of saving throw is the sum of your saving throw bonus from all of your classes.

Most classes have three good, one average, and two poor saving throws.

Good saving throw progression: 2 + 1/2 class level
Average saving throw progression: 1 + 2/5 class level
Poor saving throw progression: 1/3 class level

Saving Throw Progressions by Level

[u]Level Good Ave. Poor[/u]
1     +2   +1   +0
2     +3   +1   +0
3     +3   +2   +1
4     +4   +2   +1
5     +4   +3   +1
6     +5   +3   +2
7     +5   +3   +2
8     +6   +4   +2
9     +6   +4   +3
10    +7   +5   +3
11    +7   +5   +3
12    +8   +5   +4
13    +8   +6   +4
14    +9   +6   +4
15    +9   +7   +5
16    +10  +7   +5
17    +10  +7   +5
18    +11  +8   +6
19    +11  +8   +6
20    +12  +9   +6

Saving Throw Progressions by Class

[b]Base Character Classes[/b]
       Str   Dex   Con   Int   Wis   Cha
[u]Class  Save  Save  Save  Save  Save  Save[/u]
Brb    Good  Good  Good  Poor  Ave.  Poor
Brd    Poor  Ave.  Poor  Good  Good  Good
Clr    Ave.  Poor  Good  Poor  Good  Good
Drd    Ave.  Poor  Good  Poor  Good  Good
Ftr    Good  Good  Good  Poor  Ave.  Poor
Mon    Good  Good  Good  Good  Good  Good
Pal    Good  Poor  Good  Poor  Ave.  Good
Rgr    Ave.  Good  Good  Poor  Good  Poor
Rog    Poor  Good  Poor  Good  Good  Ave.
Sor    Poor  Poor  Ave.  Good  Good  Good
Wiz    Poor  Poor  Ave.  Good  Good  Good

[b]Non-Player Character Classes[/b]
       Str   Dex   Con   Int   Wis   Cha
[u]Class  Save  Save  Save  Save  Save  Save[/u]
Adp    Poor  Poor  Ave.  Ave.  Good  Good
Ari    Good  Poor  Good  Ave.  Poor  Ave.
Com    Poor  Poor  Poor  Poor  Poor  Poor
Exp    Poor  Ave.  Ave.  Good  Good  Poor

[b]Prestige Classes[/b]
       Str   Dex   Con   Int   Wis   Cha
[u]Class  Save  Save  Save  Save  Save  Save[/u]
AAr    Ave.  Good  Good  Poor  Good  Poor
ATr    Poor  Ave.  Poor  Good  Good  Good
Acm    Poor  Poor  Ave.  Good  Good  Good
Asn    Poor  Good  Ave.  Good  Good  Poor
Blk    Good  Poor  Good  Poor  Ave.  Good
DDi    Ave.  Poor  Good  Poor  Good  Good
Due    Poor  Good  Poor  Good  Good  Ave.
DwD    Good  Good  Good  Poor  Ave.  Poor
ElK    Good  Good  Good  Poor  Ave.  Poor
Hie    Ave.  Poor  Good  Poor  Good  Good
HoW    Poor  Poor  Good  Ave.  Good  Good
Lor    Poor  Poor  Ave.  Good  Good  Good
MyT    Poor  Poor  Ave.  Good  Good  Good
Shd    Poor  Good  Poor  Ave.  Good  Good
Tha    Poor  Poor  Ave.  Good  Good  Good

[b]Monster Hit Dice (Varies by Species)[/b]
       Str   Dex   Con   Int   Wis   Cha
[u]Class  Save  Save  Save  Save  Save  Save[/u]
Abb    Poor  Ave.  Good  Good  Good  Poor
Ani    Good  Good  Good  Poor  Ave.  Poor
Con    Good  Good  Ave.  Poor  Good  Poor
Dra    Good  Good  Good  Good  Good  Good
Ele    Good  Good  Good  Poor  Ave.  Poor
Fey    Poor  Ave.  Poor  Good  Good  Good
Gnt    Good  Good  Good  Poor  Ave.  Poor
Hum    Good  Good  Good  Poor  Ave.  Poor
MaB    Good  Good  Good  Poor  Ave.  Poor
MoH    Good  Good  Good  Poor  Ave.  Poor
Ooz    Poor  Poor  Poor  Poor  Poor  Poor
Out    Good  Good  Good  Good  Good  Good
Plt    Good  Ave.  Good  Poor  Good  Poor
Und    Ave.  Poor  Poor  Good  Good  Good
Ver    Good  Good  Good  Poor  Ave.  Poor

Strength Saving Throws and Size
Large or bigger characters gain a +2 bonus on all Strength saving throws for every size category by which they are larger than Medium (Large +2, Huge +4, Gargantuan +6, Colossal +8). Small or smaller characters take a -2 penalty on all Strength saving throws for every size category by which they are smaller than Medium (Small -2, Tiny -4, Diminutive -6, Fine -8).

Magical Bonuses to Saving Throws
There is no such thing as a “resistance bonus.” A miscellaneous magical bonus to saving throws is an enhancement bonus.

Saving Throws As Opposed Rolls
In some cases, you can attempt a saving throw against a DC set by another character’s roll. Often, you can choose to attempt either a saving throw or a skill check, whichever is better for you.

Against recognition: If you aren’t hiding or in disguise, you can attempt a Charisma saving throw against an opponent’s Spot check to avoid being recognized in a crowd, at a distance or in some similar situation where your presence but not your identity is obvious.

Against stealth: You can attempt a Wisdom saving throw instead of a passive Listen or Spot check. If you actively attempt to find someone, you must roll a skill check instead of a saving throw.

Against trickery: You can attempt a Wisdom saving throw instead of a skill check against a Bluff, Disguise or Forgery attempt.

Holding on: You can attempt a Strength saving throw against a surface’s Climb DC to avoid being knocked off. If you are next to some surface and falling, once per round, you can attempt a Dexterity saving throw against the Climb DC to grab hold of the surface and stop falling (if this could plausibly happen). Your armor check penalty applies.

Escaping: You can attempt a Dexterity saving throw instead of an Escape Artist check to slip out of bonds. Your armor check penalty applies.

Riding: You can attempt a Dexterity saving throw instead of a Ride check to stay in the saddle or land without taking damage. Your armor check penalty applies.

Swimming: You can attempt a Strength saving throw instead of a Swim check to tread water. Your armor check penalty applies.

New and Altered Feats

Great Fortitude [General]
You do not succumb to force, fatigue or malady.
Benefit: You make Strength and Constitution saving throws with a +2 bonus.

Hardy [General]
You have learned how to resist attacks and mishaps.
Prerequisites: Six base saving throw bonuses of +2 or higher, ability score 13+
Benefit: Choose one type of saving throw (Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom or Charisma). You must have a score of at least 13 in the associated ability. You can add 2 + 1/2 your level, instead of your base saving throw bonus, on that type of saving throw. You still add all other modifiers. This is not the same thing as raising your base saving throw bonus, and does not meet a base saving throw bonus prerequisite.
Normal You add your base saving throw bonuses to saving throws.
Special: You may select this feat up to six times. Each time you select it, it applies to a different type of saving throw.

Improved Bull Rush [General]
Prerequisites: Str 13+, Power Attack.
Benefit: When you perform a bull rush, you do not provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender. The DC of the defender’s Strength saving throw increases by 4.
Special: A fighter may select Improved Bull Rush as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Improved Grapple [General]
You are an expert wrestler.
Prerequisites: Dex 13+, Improved Unarmed Strike
Benefit: You gain a +4 bonus on all Strength saving throws and saving throw DCs related to grappling.
Special: A fighter may select Improved Grapple as one of his fighter bonus feats. A monk may select Improved Grapple as a bonus feat at 1st level, even if she does not meet the prerequisites.

Improved Overrun [General]
Prerequisites: Str 13+, Power Attack.
Benefit: When you attempt to overrun an opponent, the target may not choose to avoid you. The DC of the defender’s Strength saving throw increases by 4.
Normal: Without this feat, the target of an overrun can choose to avoid you or to block you.
Special: A fighter may select Improved Overrun as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Improved Trip [General]
Prerequisites: Int 13+, Combat Expertise.
Benefit: You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when you attempt to trip an opponent while you are unarmed. The DC of your opponent’s Strength saving throw increases by 4. If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt.
Normal: Without this feat, you provoke an attack of opportunity when you attempt to trip an opponent while you are unarmed.
Special: At 6th level, a monk may select Improved Trip as a bonus feat, even if she does not have the prerequisites. A fighter may select Improved Trip as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Iron Will [General]
You resist magic by force of will.
Benefit: You make Wisdom and Charisma saving throws with a +2 bonus.

Lightning Reflexes [General]
You have quick wits and quick feet.
Benefit: You make Dexterity and Intelligence saving throws with a +2 bonus.

Unstoppable [General]
You prevail against even the most potent of attacks and the worst of fortune.
Prerequisites: Iron Will, Great Fortitude, Lightning Reflexes
Benefit: You make all saving throws with a +2 bonus. You do not automatically fail a saving throw on a natural 1.

 

[Land Outcast]

I read the article, before seeing this post; but in my group we surely are doing something wrong, because we never came to a dead-stop because of any mechanics... (except about spells, sometimes)

 

[Lorehead]

Overpower DC
Your overbear DC equals: 10 + base attack bonus + Strength modifier + size bonus on Strength saving throws. For instance, a Medium 2nd-level fighter with Str 16 would have a overpower DC of 15 (10 + 2 BAB + 3 Str + 0 size).

Starting a Grapple
To start a grapple, you attack with an unarmed strike. If you succeed on your attack roll and the target fails a Strength saving throw, opposed by your overbear DC, you are grappling. You pull your target into your space. You cannot start a grapple against a character more than one size category larger than you.

Grappling
At the start of each turn, a character who is grappling can attempt either a Strength saving throw or an Escape Artist check, opposed by the other grappler’s overbear DC, as a free action to escape. The opponent can choose not to keep grappling, in which case the attempt automatically succeeds. If the saving throw fails, both characters are still grappling.

Grappling characters suffer certain restrictions on the following actions:

• Leaving their space
• Attacking
• Casting a spell

Grappling characters can:

• Pin their opponent as a full-round action. The defender can attempt a Strength saving throw against the attacker’s overbear DC to avoid being pinned. All attempts to pin creatures more than one size category larger than the attacker automatically fail.
• Make a melee attack with a light weapon. This includes any natural weapon, such as an unarmed strike. They may use the attack action or the full attack action with allowed weapons.
• Retrieve a material component as a move-equivalent action
• Cast a spell. The spell cannot have a somatic component, the caster must have all material components in hand, and the caster must succeed at a Concentration check (DC 20 + spell level) or lose the spell.
• Move up to their speed as a full-round action, dragging their opponent with them. The defender may attempt a Strength saving throw against the aggressor’s overbear DC to prevent this.
• Take a -20 penalty on their overbear DCs to hold their opponent with a single limb. This is a free action which they can only perform when attempting to start a grapple, or at the end of their turn. Their limb is not free, and their opponent can still prevent them from moving with a Strength saving throw. Other than that, they take no penalties for grappling and can act normally.
• Grapple normally, without the -20 penalty on their overbear DCs. This is a free action which they can only perform at the start of their tuen.
• Take any other plausible action

Pinned Characters
Pinned characters cannot move effectively. At the option of whoever pins them, they cannot speak either. They are not helpless. Each round, a pinned character can attempt a Strength saving throw or an Escape Artist check to become grappled instead of pinned. A pinned character who fails to escape can take only mental actions, such as using a spell-like ability or casting a spell without verbal and somatic components.

Special Attacks
Monsters with the improved grab ability can start a grapple using a particular natural weapon, not just with an unarmed strike.

Monsters with the constrict ability add their constriction damage to all successful attacks they make with one of their natural weapons in a grapple. It does not matter how the grapple started. If they also have the improved grab ability, they add their constriction damage to the natural weapon that they use for improved grab. Otherwise, they add their constriction damage to their primary natural weapon. If they have no primary natural weapon, they add their constriction damage to their unarmed strikes.

Monsters with the rake ability can make extra attacks in a grapple.

 

[Bront]

I don't particularly like the multiple saves, and it devalues mental stats for non-casters even more than otherwise.

Wisdom's saving grace for most characters was it's skill use (which is only an issue with some characters, and can be compensated for eventualy), and the Will save. Spreading most of it's effects over 3 stats devalues it a lot. It also adds confusion to what was a fairly simple system. Will, Fort, and Ref are fairly well defined (You dodge it, you physicaly resist it, or you mentaly resist it), and I find that helps speed up the game. Need to do anything else beyond that? Either it's a skill roll, or just a stat roll.

 

[Nifft]

I find your system very interesting, and well thought-out, but I think you will need to re-work several other parts of the game system in order to take advantage of it.

Intelligence saves, for example, seem to imply a save vs. Ray spells, which lowers the power of such spells considerably -- unless you mean to change Ray spells from ranged touch attacks to save negates, which would be interesting, but would still mess up some cool game features, like sneak attacks with Rays and crits with Rays.

Anyway. It seems like a nicely designed system, and I'd consider using it INSTEAD of skills (in a more streamlined game).

Cheers, -- N

 

[Lorehead]

I find your system very interesting, and well thought-out, but I think you will need to re-work several other parts of the game system in order to take advantage of it.

It's certainly much easier to tear out and replace small, discrete systems. Really, I posted this to get the idea out there and see what everyone else could add to it.

Intelligence saves, for example, seem to imply a save vs. Ray spells, which lowers the power of such spells considerably -- unless you mean to change Ray spells from ranged touch attacks to save negates, which would be interesting, but would still mess up some cool game features, like sneak attacks with Rays and crits with Rays.

I was thinking more in terms of letting the save set your touch AC against the attack, but nothing is set in stone. Note that the characters with a good Int save are also those who wear light or no armor: those who, in other words, should have a decent chance of dodging a ray, but don't. Right now, rays always hit and crits essentially cancel out the possibility of rolling a natural 1. We have a complicated system that works out to practically the same result as just making the spell auto-hit.

Anyway. It seems like a nicely designed system, and I'd consider using it INSTEAD of skills (in a more streamlined game).

Thanks. I don't think this system could replace reactive skills entirely (since it doesn't keep pace with active ones), but it at least gives high-level characters a chance to succeed on an opposed check. Right now, they don't have one. Again, the system forces a lot of bookkeeping, but always has a foregone conclusion.

 

[Rothe]

I like it. It has a certain elegence about it. The ray save based on INT makes perfect sense to me, especially for spell casters. Knowing the ways of magic they are better able to judge when the spell will be complete and how such things are "aimed."