How can we balance Level 1 - 40?

[Bladesinger_Boy]

How can we balance level 1 to 40?

Here are some ideas I have. A lot of them revolve around level "tiers" at 1st, 11th, 21st, and 31st. Let's brainstorm and refine anything that might make this workable.

- one additional attack per tier, regardless of BAB (to limit # of attack rolls)
- having haste, TWF, Flurry of Blows, or other extra attacks integrated into "primary" attack rolls and damage (to limit # of attack rolls)
- static 1/2 per level bonus on many things: base saves, initiative, "stat" checks, maybe damage, maybe skills
- magic item or spell bonuses capped at +2 per tier, and therefore reach a max possible bonus of +8 in the 31st to 40th level tier. This would include things like: weapon or armor +, stat enhancement +, AC buff + (like natural armor or deflection),
- inherent bonuses capped at +1 per tier, and therefore reach a max possible bonus of +4 in the 31st to 40th level tier (no more +5 books)
- maybe level reqs for items, and using an item too powerful simply lowers its effective bonus to that of whatever tier you do qualify for (ex: so a +7 sword functions as only a +4 to a 15th level character, and then as a +6 upon hitting 21st level)
- caster level reqs for item creation should be retooled to reflect tiers. Similar to some 4th Ed conventions, level 1 to 5 is the base caster level amount and add another +5 for each higher enhancement. So, something like...
ENHANCEMENT____CASTER LEVEL REQ
+1........................1
+2........................6
+3........................11
+4........................16
+5........................21
+6........................26
+7........................31
+8........................36

- item costs retooled so there is no x10 multiplier for going into epic pluses. I'd lean against something like some flat "X Level item" costs like 4th Ed and rework the existing wealth to fit the current 3.5 schema. As we're squaring very high enhancement items, the costs become quite high anyways.

- retool caster level caps for spells up to 40th level caster level. This could be done in 5pt increments, or perhaps even something more "blanket" like (but this is debatable)...
SPELL LEVEL________CASTER LEVEL CAP
0, 1, 2......................10
3, 4, 5......................20
6, 7, 8......................30
9, (10?, 11?)..............40
- feats and maybe PrCs having reqs more based around tiers and less so on BAB, caster level or spells, skill ranks (especially epic), or big feat chains
- DR that is /epic magic now demands only a +5 weapon (not +6)

That's all I can think of for now. Please, let's append to this as we come up with ideas.

 

[Sadrik]

How can we balance level 1 to 40?

You can't without major overhaul. Honestly D&D plays best between 1 and 15 and that is pushing the outer limits some most would probably say 4-12.

 

[Bladesinger_Boy]

Isn't that what we're doing here, an overhaul? I think it is possible.

Sadrick, what do you think we need to specifically change, overhaul? Do we need to go to a 1/2 BAB like 4E? We're on these boards because we believe positive change to the 3.5 D&D system is possible. So what needs fixing? And how do we try to fix it?

 

[Sadrik]

before you start capping bonuses and such I would look at what you want high level play to feel like...

Do you want the game to basically be bigger and higher bonuses to add to the d20? Do you want everything to be super easy for these ultra high level characters? Do you want everything to scale perfectly like 4e so that a 1st level fight is just as hard as a 30th level fight?

Once you determine that goal then you might have a better idea as to what you want to do with the 3e system to tweak it into how you envision it should be. BTW I don't think you will find a consensus in the style of high level games.

 

[Bladesinger_Boy]

scaling like 4E would be great. Very few d20 rolls, like one per round. Higher bonuses are fine, but I want things progressing at a predictable, workable rate.

I hate the current bump into epic territory. I really don't like random when it comes to permanent aspects of a character, so I love point buy stats and set per-level HP.

I want to scale down rate of spell advancement, but off more at-will powers and class features to spellcasters. I like mana points rather than the normal spell slots. Maybe more martial classes should have maneuvers and stances; not sure.

I suppose if I'm reducing the number of rolls made, I might want to find some way to reduce the amount of rolls spellcasters make. Auto-confirmation on criticals is good. Criticals at max normal damage, or x1.5 max, or x2 rather than x2, x3, x4.

Yeah, this becomes pretty homebrew.

 

[Sadrik]

One of the 4e complaints is that you never get any better. No matter what level you are generally fightinhg against numbers that are tailored directly to you +1/2 level to hit and +1/2 level to defenses. I don't like it too. I think taking a good look at 1e and 2e with saves and attacks makes a whole lot of sense. A 20th level fighter should hit every time, a 20th level character should save nearly every time - they are just that bad ass.

Rolling one attack roll with a 50-60% chance to hit every time is dull for high level.

Anyway that is my opinion for high level.

 

[Kerrick]

I'll give you guys my opinion of epic, since I've actually done an overhaul of the system:

Fights should be challenging at all levels - not perfectly balanced like 4E. I don't know if you guys have played Oblivion, or are familiar with it, but that game is a perfect example of level-centric play. Everything levels with you - loot, monsters, gear you find, etc. At L1, you'll find L1-3 bandits running around in fur and iron armor. At L30, you'll find L30 bandits running around in glass and daedric armor (those are the best light and heavy armors, respectively). Bandits wearing daedric armor (which would be comparable to, say, mithril or adamantine in D&D) just strains credulity. Even the loot lists are based on level - you won't find good armor until you're high enough level, which is absurd beyond all comprehension.

Thankfully, someone took it upon himself to make an overhaul whereby things are more statically levelled - bandits, for example, don't advance past L15 or so, and they'll never wear anything better than mid-level armor (and that's usually the "worn", or lesser-quality, version). Dungeons are static - if you stumble into some out-of-the-way place at L1, there's a good chance you'll get your face eaten.

Needless to say, it's an incredibly popular mod.

Now, back to my point: encounters (not just combats) should be challenging at any level, but not every encounter should be a challenge - sometimes the PCs can run across something that's little more than a speed bump. This is something that 4E seems to have forgotten.

Fighters should not be able to hit every time he swings. With the first couple attacks, sure, but there needs to be some element of uncertainty to keep things interesting. Rolling one attack/round and knowing you'll hit is boring - there's no challenge in it. Likewise, if you can save all the time, what's the point of doing anything? The DM might as well just say "Rather than go dungeon-diving, I'll just hand out XP and loot now, and then we can all go out for pizza." The element of randomness is what makes D&D fun. I'm sure you've got stories of the time someone made a fantastic roll, or the time everyone died due to crappy rolls.

For my part, I made post-20th level play scale more or less the same as 1-20. This required a lot of work - I had to redo the wealth tables, change the "epic price multiplier" to work with the new tables, alter the EAB/EAS system, overhaul the monster design rules, and a few other things. The result is a smoother transition from L20 to L21+: no more "Hey, I'm epic!" like flipping on a light switch; it's more like "Hey, I'm L21! And I'm not any more special than before!". Well, kind of. I'm working on base class progressions for L21-40, so players can stick with one class if they want and keep gaining new abilities.

As for your ideas, BB:

I'd rather go with caps over static bonuses. Static bonuses = cookie-cutter characters, which is one of my main gripes with 4E. Capping inherent bonuses is a good idea, as well as the item bonus cap. I don't think you need level reqs for items - this is already covered in the wealth by level guidelines. If the DM wants to hand out items that are far above the expected power level, then either a) he wants to play a high-power game, and you should let him; or b) he's an idiot, and he'll reap the consequences of his actions when said PC(s) mow through his opponents. See my starting wealth guidelines and price progression discussion for more details.

Looking over all your ideas, I think you might be better off starting with 4E as a base and working backward, taking things from 3.5 that you like and adding them in to make the ruleset you want to use.

 

[Bladesinger_Boy]

Others have told me that too- start with 4E and change what you want. Because deciding on all these variants is hindering me getting my campaign started, I think I will begin with 4E and then at some point later switch over into the full homebrew, 3.5 & 4th Ed, mixed design.

I'm currently deciding what to do with BAB. I agree with Kerrick that allowing full 1/1 BAB into epic (past 20th level) creates problems. I'd said before in another post somewhere that I liked the idea of 1/2 BAB for full spellcasters, 3/4 for everyone else, and no full 1/1 BAB. Since I want to use 3.5, I'm trying to come up with options to give previously full BAB classes (core or prestige) to compensate for their reduced BAB. So, here are some ideas so far. This is per point of lost BAB:
- 1 feat of any type
- 1 variant (maybe without the "given up" part)
- 2 (3?) levels of martial "spell" advancement (maneuvers & stances)
- 1 level of (regular) spell advancement
- two different +1 stat boosts
- "save" feat
- "tactical" feat
- "combat focus" feat
- Toughness feat (as per 4E Toughness of +5hp/tier), stacks
- +5ft speed as per Dash feat, stacks
- 1 Level Adjustment removed
- more self healing healing surges, wholeness of body, etc
- additional "per use" charges as per feats (Extra Turning, Extra Music, Extra Smiting, etc)
- +1 Aura and additional Minor or Major Aura (as per Marshal class)

I'm just going to list the auras.

MINOR AURAS:
- + atk to confirm criticals
- + to disarm, trip, bull rush, sunder
- + fort save
- + beat Spell Resistance
- + will save
- + AC vs AoO
- + Cha checks & skills
- + Con checks & skills
- + Dex checks & skills
- + Int checks & skills
- + Str checks & skills
- + Wis checks & skills
- + dam when charging
- + Reflex save

MAJOR AURAS:
- DR +/-
- + dam
- + melee atks
- + AC
- +x5 added to speed
- + all saves
- + ranged atks

Clearly, some of those minor auras blow. So I'll combine a few into better ones and just remove the minor/major naming conventions. So here we have just plan old "Auras". One active at a time.

AURAS: (allies within 60ft)
- DR +/-
- + melee atks & dam
- + AC
- +x5 added to speed and + to disarm, trip, bull rush, sunder
- + all saves
- + ranged atks & dam
- + all checks & skills
- + caster level (too mage-ish?)

 

[Kerrick]

Two points:

1) You MUST revert, at some point, to the 1/2 progression for all classes. I've analyzed this at length, and it's the only way to keep parity between PCs and monsters (or even PCs and PCs) - BAB progresses far more rapidly than AC, and AC will eventually cap out at some point as you run out of things to stack on. That's why I decided to do it when your BAB hits +20 - it accounts for multiclassing the best.

2) How are you going to determine "per point of lost BAB"?

 

[Bladesinger_Boy]

Kerrick, I'm going to have all classes as either 1/2 or 3/4 BAB. Those classes that would have full 1/1 bab get dropped down to 3/4 and get some other funk in its place. Maybe a feat or an aura or "martial" maneuver & stance advancement (combat "spells").

LEVEL___1/2BAB____3/4BAB___DIFFERENCE
1...........0...............0.............0
6...........3...............4.............1
11..........5...............8.............3
16..........8...............12...........4
21..........10..............15...........5
26..........13..............19...........6
31..........15..............23...........8
36..........18..............27...........9

I can live with those difference, Kerrick.