D&D 5E How Do Monks Survive At Low Levels?

[Leugren]

Dodge action. Timely strikes. 'Problem' solved,

You're right, of course. The monk can just use the Dodge action every round, and then sneak in for a kill-steal every once in a while when it suits them. If you're lucky, you might make it to level 5 before your teammates decide that you're nothing but dead weight and stake you out in front of a dragon lair as a sacrificial offering.

 

[cmad1977]

You're right, of course. The monk can just use the Dodge action every round, and then sneak in for a kill-steal every once in a while when it suits them. If you're lucky, you might make it to level 5 before your teammates decide that you're nothing but dead weight and stake you out in front of a dragon lair as a sacrificial offering.

Simply start a tally of all the blows that missed you and the average damage of those blows. Show the party how much pain you spared your allies, how many healing spells you saved your allies... Then dodge away when they smack you because you're right.

 

[frupton]

I'm playing a monk in the Adventurers League. All the way up from Level 1, and he's currently level 10.

He's a human variant, so dex = wis = 16 at level 1, ergo AC 16. But I went with Defensive Duelist rather than Mobility, and have been pretty happy with the choice. Essentially he was AC 18 vs. melee attacks from level 1, as he could parry melee attacks that only hit AC 16 or 17. (Technically only 1x/round, but I don't think it ever happened that that mattered.) Saved his bacon more than once.

In the long run, this feat shores up one of the monk's main weaknesses (Melee AC) as monks later get deflect missiles, and proficiency in all saves. Now that he's level 10, he's actually pretty tanky, and can fend off attacks better than many of the folks in plate mail.

 

[Leugren]

I'm playing a monk in the Adventurers League. All the way up from Level 1, and he's currently level 10.

He's a human variant, so dex = wis = 16 at level 1, ergo AC 16. But I went with Defensive Duelist rather than Mobility, and have been pretty happy with the choice. Essentially he was AC 18 vs. melee attacks from level 1, as he could parry melee attacks that only hit AC 16 or 17. (Technically only 1x/round, but I don't think it ever happened that that mattered.) Saved his bacon more than once.

In the long run, this feat shores up one of the monk's main weaknesses (Melee AC) as monks later get deflect missiles, and proficiency in all saves. Now that he's level 10, he's actually pretty tanky, and can fend off attacks better than many of the folks in plate mail.

Thanks, frupton. This is exactly the type of feedback I was looking for. I had not considered the Defensive Duelist feat. The fact that it can only be used once per round made it seem weak to me, but then again, the Mobile feat is only conditionally useful as well. It really only lets you extricate yourself from melee against opponents that can be kept from following you by one of your allies. Otherwise, your opponents can just close the gap with you without missing a step if they choose to do so. I'm fully prepared to admit that I may be overestimating the frequency with which the Mobile feat will actually come into play.

When you merely read about an ability, you tend to fixate on specific aspects of it in such a way that you draw distorted conclusions about its effectiveness (or ineffectiveness). As a case in point, I've been playing a Berserker Barbarian for quite a while and loving it, despite the fact that many people think it's such a "horrible" class. In short, a lot of people seem to fall into a group-think based on other peoples' unsubstantiated opinions, which is what I'm really hoping to avoid by soliciting feedback from people with actual play experience. Thanks!

 

[mellored]

Balance in 5e is much tighter then other editions.

So even if you play the "worst" class in a party of the "best" class, you don't feel useless. Maybe a bit weak, but not useless.

 

[frupton]

Thanks, frupton. This is exactly the type of feedback I was looking for. I had not considered the Defensive Duelist feat. The fact that it can only be used once per round made it seem weak to me, but then again, the Mobile feat is only conditionally useful as well. It really only lets you extricate yourself from melee against opponents that can be kept from following you by one of your allies. Otherwise, your opponents can just close the gap with you without missing a step if they choose to do so. I'm fully prepared to admit that I may be overestimating the frequency with which the Mobile feat will actually come into play.

Yeah, that's why I'm not such a fan of Mobile. It's good for you as an individual, but it's not necessarily good for the team. I also agree with MwaO on this:

[Y]ou don't generally want to dart in and out of combat in 5e, because in doing so, you're freeing up that target to go unimpeded towards the weakest member of your party. Say the Wizard or Sorcerer. It is almost certainly a net-win if the monsters spend a lot of effort attacking the PC who has already gone rather than the PCs who have yet to go. As the party Monk, you might not appreciate it that your DM is focus firing you, but that's the correct action to do if your DM then spends all his effort going after the wrong target.

And again, Defensive Duelist gets better as you gain levels.

 

[MwaO]

As a case in point, I've been playing a Berserker Barbarian for quite a while and loving it, despite the fact that many people think it's such a "horrible" class.

Err...no one thinks Barbarian's a horrible class. The problem is about how optimization works. Namely:
You want to in theory be able to spend every single action that you have - you should spend a minor action every round and if you can't do that, then you want to spend resources gaining such an ability. Barbarian as a default has one or less minor action option per combat, the "I Rage." and two obvious feat choices that involve making a minor action attack. Berserker means you resolve that for one combat.

By definition, they're in conflict - Berserker doesn't solve the problem, Polearm Master and Great Weapon Master solve the problem, but don't work with Berserker. And in the context that you're exhausted? That's what sucks. Then, when you get the free reaction attack with Polearm Master and you realize that the ability to move up to a target, swat at it with a reach weapon, and then back off to make it provoke is a really good one to protect yourself from the consequences of Reckless attack...

But Barbarian's a good class, especially at low levels - you shouldn't find yourself bad even if you pick Berserker. It is just a really horrible choice.

 

[Leugren]

But Barbarian's a good class, especially at low levels - you shouldn't find yourself bad even if you pick Berserker. It is just a really horrible choice.

This isn't really a thread about Barbarians, dude, but I'll bite just this once. It seems to me that, in your worldview, anyone who is playing a Barbarian but who chooses not to use a halberd or a glaive is making a "really horrible choice". "Less than optimal" is a long way off from "really horrible". My maul-wielding Mountain Dwarf Berserker makes great use of Frenzy, Mindless Rage, and Retaliation. A similar maul-wielding Totem Barbarian would have resistance to additional damage types, but would be doing far less damage and have a strong vulnerability to domination effects. In short, the words "really horrible" shouldn't even enter into the discussion in this context, because it is a gross exaggeration.

With that stated, this is a thread about Monks, so please, let's stick to the subject. If you wish to have a further debate about Barbarians, I'd be happy to participate, but in a separate thread.

 

[Leugren]

Yeah, that's why I'm not such a fan of Mobile. It's good for you as an individual, but it's not necessarily good for the team. I also agree with MwaO on this:



And again, Defensive Duelist gets better as you gain levels.

Out of curiosity, frupton, can you tell us a bit about your experiences from levels 1 through 4? Apart from Defensive Duelist once per round, I'm assuming that you had a mediocre AC and pretty low HP compared to a typical melee combatant. If you weren't darting in and out of melee range like a Swashbuckler, how did you manage to not get pasted? As the most lightly armored and squishiest front-liner, I imagine that any mob of melee opponents would try to focus fire on you.

 

[frupton]

It's been a year or so, but my recollections are:

1). Hp aren't that different at low levels. I.e at level 2 I had 17 hp but the tanks had 20. We're both usually down in 3-4 hits.

2) levels 1-2 go by pretty fast, by design on the XP scale. 900 XP to level 3 vs. 6500 to level 5 means spending much more time at level 3-4. This may partly be an Adventurers League thing. But I believe I spent all of one evening at level 1, and maybe 2 evenings at level 2.

3) levels 3-4 were a bit dicey. I spent some ki now and then to dodge. In certain tactical situations When I was out of ki, I think I spent an action to dodge. It's not as sexy as doing extra damage, but it's hard for bad guys to hit AC 18 with disadvantage while you stand in the doorway and let your allies fire artillery. I did get knocked out once or twice though.

4) Monks are both perceptive and stealthy. You get beat up less when you get a surprise round.