Cool. Thanks for the info!
D&D 5E How Do Monks Survive At Low Levels?
Cool. Thanks for the info!
I'll point this out here, because it has little to do with Barbarian, but rather how optimization works. Namely, every PC, at least in theory, should be trying to do the following:
Use every action - action, bonus, and reaction - every round of every combat to push the enemy closer to defeat.
Get as much consistent Advantage, bonus damage, and attacks as possible.
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Monks do reasonably well at all of those as a default and gain an unusually large benefit from good stats. Barbarians do badly at a few of them, Totem or Berserker, and really just need to be good at one specific stat. And because of that, Monks don't really need feats and Barbarians do. And the obvious feat choices that Barbarians get don't synergize with options that grant bonus action attacks or reaction attacks.
In other words, your Maul-wielding Berserker isn't typically doing significantly more damage than a Maul-wielding Totem Barbarian, simply because Great Weapon Master exists and grants bonus action attacks often when your Barbarian is raging in round 2+. Especially when you force opponents to either let you pick your choice of wounded opponent to take down or take a reaction attack to approach you. But that's a different weapon...
Not true. My Maul-Wielding Berserker gets an additional reaction attack almost every round thanks to Retaliation. The Maul-Wielding Totem Barbarian, by contrast, has no consistent source of reaction attacks. The Maul-Wielding Berserker also has a much more reliable source of bonus action attacks for at least one encounter per day (usually the key encounter). By your own set of definitions, the Maul-Wielding Berserker is therefore more optimized than the Maul-Wielding Totem Warrior because he makes better use of the action economy.
Getting back to low-level monks, however, the best strategies I've heard so far involve hanging back and shooting your light crossbow from round to round, perhaps darting in to kill a foe with your extra unarmed strike if he looks like he is about to topple. Running in and trying to go toe-to-toe as a general strategy still seems like a terrible idea for a low-level monk that only looks good on paper to an armchair optimizer. Your AC is going to be 16 if you are a human, wood elf, or aarakocra; 14-15 if you are anything else. You don't have high HP, resistance to damage, self-healing, or any other abilities that increase your melee durability beyond the norm. In terms of melee durability, you are not even on par with a wizard that has Mage Armor and the Shield spell.
You are therefore a perfect target for focus fire by your opponents, especially if you are dealing a good bit of damage with your attacks. The exception is if you have an ally with the Sentinel feat or the Protection fighting style who can punish opponents for trying to hit you. Otherwise, you are apt to find yourself mobbed and wasting turns to use the Dodge action, when you could instead be making ranged attacks reliably. That doesn't seem like an optimal strategy to me; that seems like really bad advice. Of course, if you have played a low-level monk yourself, please feel free to correct me, and to provide some details on the winning strategy that worked for you.
EDIT: You're MommyWasAnOrc from the WOTC boards, aren't you? I just realized it. Normally, I agree with a lot of what you post. I'm quite familiar with general optimization theory from years and years on the WOTC boards. In this case, however, I'm really just looking for testimonials from people who have actually played monks.
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GainVanquish
First Post
I play a Tiefling Monk. Its all about movement at the lower levels. Use the ki wisely. I have an AC 15. Took the Way of the Four elements and use the Water Whip spell (use as my range attack). At level 4 took the Mobile Feat to allow disengage every turn you attack.
I play in a group without any healer so is difficult.
I play in a group without any healer so is difficult.
I like the idea of taking the Defensive Duelist feat to improve monk survivability. It should be noted, according to the rules as written and intended (according to the Sage Advice column), that a monk cannot use that feat with unarmed attacks, because unarmed attacks are not finesse weapons. A monk could officially use the feat while wielding a short sword or dagger (both qualify as monk weapon). [As a DM, I would allow use of the feat with unarmed attacks]
Eltab
Lord of the Hidden Layer
My AL Wood Elf Monk has been downed only once in a fight (now L3) - and that was in part because I blew an Acrobatics check while showing off. (I tried to jump on top of a jail cell a la Jackie Chan, rolled BAD, and wound up flat on my face, with no more movement, in front of the cell.)
The rest of the time I was so effective in combat that the party Cleric picked me plus the Fighter plus the Barbarian for his Bless.
I have always had a Fighter, Paladin, or War Cleric in the group to tank. This helps because they draw fire.
I usually play as a skirmisher who has to sandpaper his enemies to death.
I love Rangers - especially ones with Colossus Slayer - because I do just enough to make it worth HIS while to focus fire on my target.
If I cannot run away, I try to end my turn standing next to somebody the Rogue can reach. Maybe the monster won't survive the Sneak Attack.
Always think about teamwork and synergy. Monks will not be able to go toe-to-toe with toughies. Help set up somebody else's moment to shine.
Do not get caught in the middle of Team Monster's goons. Be around the edges of the fight.
You really want to get in spellcasters' face, try to mess up their Concentration (good luck with a DC 1d4+5 roll) or get them to try a spell attack roll (rather than a Save-for-half).
In the worst case, make sure the enemy artillery has a choice: shoot you or your friends, but he cannot hit both. He may pick your friends if they are at major tactical disadvantage.
In effect, my attack + martial arts (I save ki for BBEGs, at this point) = TWF or "advantage" on attack rolls - because I get to roll twice.
Speed =?= armor, in that if you are running around the edges of the map, most enemies ignore you. I am very aware of the Jacky Fischer Battlecruiser Problem, though. Sooner or later I'll mess up a DM's plans and he will concentrate on me.
My almost-clone EE Wood Elf Monk had the embarrassing experience of scouting out a room, awakening three skeletons, and getting surrounded before my friends (including a Fighter) could get in to help. I stumbled out of THAT one with 1/4 original HP. I did take one skeleton down by myself, though - the one between me and the exit.
Both Monks have been helped because (for concept reasons) I took Rogue1 w/Expertise (Stealth). If nobody knows I'm there they won't try to hit me with sharp pointy things...
Try to think strategically.
I want to run up to some spellcaster and snitch away his Spell Component Pouch, then run. What can he do to me without it? Bardic Cutting Words excepted, words don't do HP damage.
I've nova'ed on a Minotaur so the Wizard could put it to Sleep, then told his friends "He's tougher than you are, and look what we did" -Intimidate-
DEX'y Monks have good Acrobatics rolls. If you are hanging from the chandelier like a Swashbuckler, but the Fighter is in the middle of the ballroom floor, who is easier for the goons to reach?
WIS'y Monks have good Perception rolls. If you hear them coming before they hear you ... ambush 'em !
Check your other skills. Investigate may allow you to figure out where the enemy HAS to pass through - so take another route and avoid the fight altogether, but still achieve your REAL goal.
The rest of the time I was so effective in combat that the party Cleric picked me plus the Fighter plus the Barbarian for his Bless.
I have always had a Fighter, Paladin, or War Cleric in the group to tank. This helps because they draw fire.
I usually play as a skirmisher who has to sandpaper his enemies to death.
I love Rangers - especially ones with Colossus Slayer - because I do just enough to make it worth HIS while to focus fire on my target.
If I cannot run away, I try to end my turn standing next to somebody the Rogue can reach. Maybe the monster won't survive the Sneak Attack.
Always think about teamwork and synergy. Monks will not be able to go toe-to-toe with toughies. Help set up somebody else's moment to shine.
Do not get caught in the middle of Team Monster's goons. Be around the edges of the fight.
You really want to get in spellcasters' face, try to mess up their Concentration (good luck with a DC 1d4+5 roll) or get them to try a spell attack roll (rather than a Save-for-half).
In the worst case, make sure the enemy artillery has a choice: shoot you or your friends, but he cannot hit both. He may pick your friends if they are at major tactical disadvantage.
In effect, my attack + martial arts (I save ki for BBEGs, at this point) = TWF or "advantage" on attack rolls - because I get to roll twice.
Speed =?= armor, in that if you are running around the edges of the map, most enemies ignore you. I am very aware of the Jacky Fischer Battlecruiser Problem, though. Sooner or later I'll mess up a DM's plans and he will concentrate on me.
My almost-clone EE Wood Elf Monk had the embarrassing experience of scouting out a room, awakening three skeletons, and getting surrounded before my friends (including a Fighter) could get in to help. I stumbled out of THAT one with 1/4 original HP. I did take one skeleton down by myself, though - the one between me and the exit.
Both Monks have been helped because (for concept reasons) I took Rogue1 w/Expertise (Stealth). If nobody knows I'm there they won't try to hit me with sharp pointy things...
Try to think strategically.
I want to run up to some spellcaster and snitch away his Spell Component Pouch, then run. What can he do to me without it? Bardic Cutting Words excepted, words don't do HP damage.
I've nova'ed on a Minotaur so the Wizard could put it to Sleep, then told his friends "He's tougher than you are, and look what we did" -Intimidate-
DEX'y Monks have good Acrobatics rolls. If you are hanging from the chandelier like a Swashbuckler, but the Fighter is in the middle of the ballroom floor, who is easier for the goons to reach?
WIS'y Monks have good Perception rolls. If you hear them coming before they hear you ... ambush 'em !
Check your other skills. Investigate may allow you to figure out where the enemy HAS to pass through - so take another route and avoid the fight altogether, but still achieve your REAL goal.
FormerlyHemlock
Hero
Elaborate please? All I can find on Wikipedia is that the battlecruiser concept was successful.
Shadowdweller00
Adventurer
Presumably he's referring to the problems with the hard-hitting but poorly armored skirmisher archtype. Battlecruisers had equivalent, powerful armaments to the more heavy-duty battleships...but sacrificed armor and resilience for speed.
Eltab
Lord of the Hidden Layer
First Sea Lord and Admiral "Jackie" Fisher, (British) Royal Navy, studied the after-action reports from the 1904 Russo-Japanese War, talked to the 'cutting-edge' technology vendors of the day, and designed a new type of warship that would be able to do 2 of 3 things to any other warship afloat: (1) Move faster; (2) Bigger guns; (3) More large guns. To accomplish this, he had to sacrifice armor thickness. The result, in between a battleship and a cruiser, he christened a battle-cruiser.
His new ships were so effective that he gave them appropriate names: HMS Invincible, HMS Indefatigable, HMS Inflexible. The prospective enemy would be facing ships that can't be beat, never get tired, and won't turn away from a fight.
Technology of course does not stand still, it keeps improving. Ten years later, it was possible to build engines that could move a heavier load just as fast. Several nations (especially Germany) built battlecruisers with the extra weight applied to armor. In 1915 the big ships met in combat. The British battlecruisers proved to be explodable: a single large-shell hit would penetrate down to somewhere critical, such as the engine room or an ammunition magazine. They could not run away from superior firepower any more because the enemy was just as fast as they were.
On 30 May 1916, the British lost three battlecruisers in one day - including the no-longer-aptly-named Invincible - due to taking a thin-skinned but high-value ship within prime weapon range of heavy artillery. (Interestingly, the newly-built, fully-armored, and equally fast Queen Elizabeth class "fast battleships" survived the same battle conditions just fine.)
What was learned was that speed is not a substitute for armor.
This long-winded reply is an explanation of the "Jackie Fischer Battlecruiser Problem."
His new ships were so effective that he gave them appropriate names: HMS Invincible, HMS Indefatigable, HMS Inflexible. The prospective enemy would be facing ships that can't be beat, never get tired, and won't turn away from a fight.
Technology of course does not stand still, it keeps improving. Ten years later, it was possible to build engines that could move a heavier load just as fast. Several nations (especially Germany) built battlecruisers with the extra weight applied to armor. In 1915 the big ships met in combat. The British battlecruisers proved to be explodable: a single large-shell hit would penetrate down to somewhere critical, such as the engine room or an ammunition magazine. They could not run away from superior firepower any more because the enemy was just as fast as they were.
On 30 May 1916, the British lost three battlecruisers in one day - including the no-longer-aptly-named Invincible - due to taking a thin-skinned but high-value ship within prime weapon range of heavy artillery. (Interestingly, the newly-built, fully-armored, and equally fast Queen Elizabeth class "fast battleships" survived the same battle conditions just fine.)
What was learned was that speed is not a substitute for armor.
This long-winded reply is an explanation of the "Jackie Fischer Battlecruiser Problem."
Eltab
Lord of the Hidden Layer
More Monk experience (but would work with any class);
In EE there is a room with a mounted glowglobe which is also an arcane eye. Villian is watching you through the eye, taunting you via a Magic Mouth and generally enjoying his moment of "I can see everything you do and you can't do anything about it."
Somebody else in the group recognized the setup: "Never mind the man behind the curtain, I AM OZ!"
I decided that it would be good to have privacy while we prepared for the next fight. I opened my backpack and pulled out my bedroll. Unzip that, then hustle across the room, throw the 'blanket' over the eye/globe, and duck back a bit (just in case).
BBEG was quite put out that we messed up his dominance game. He was also surprised - no audio sensor - when we kicked down the door to his hiding place and burst in.
In EE there is a room with a mounted glowglobe which is also an arcane eye. Villian is watching you through the eye, taunting you via a Magic Mouth and generally enjoying his moment of "I can see everything you do and you can't do anything about it."
Somebody else in the group recognized the setup: "Never mind the man behind the curtain, I AM OZ!"
I decided that it would be good to have privacy while we prepared for the next fight. I opened my backpack and pulled out my bedroll. Unzip that, then hustle across the room, throw the 'blanket' over the eye/globe, and duck back a bit (just in case).
BBEG was quite put out that we messed up his dominance game. He was also surprised - no audio sensor - when we kicked down the door to his hiding place and burst in.
