D&D 5E How does one "Champion"?

Why was the character under-performing?

In general, a champion should be doing well as a front line warrior. While people can (and have) offered all sorts of suggestions to optimize for various tastes, none of them would really address this:

"My character was knocked out so many times . . . "

Sure, you can reduce that number with careful optimization, but if you are just playing a by the book champion out to hit things, you should be getting good results. My thought is that most likely your character was performing fine and your expectations were off. If the rest of the party is squishy and you are the sole meat-shield...yeah, you are going to get knocked out a lot.

So you probably didn't do anything wrong, and messing around with stuff may not make a huge difference. This is one of those cases where you probably really should just pick what fits your concept and go for it.
 

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Why was the character under-performing?

In general, a champion should be doing well as a front line warrior. While people can (and have) offered all sorts of suggestions to optimize for various tastes, none of them would really address this:

"My character was knocked out so many times . . . "

Sure, you can reduce that number with careful optimization, but if you are just playing a by the book champion out to hit things, you should be getting good results. My thought is that most likely your character was performing fine and your expectations were off. If the rest of the party is squishy and you are the sole meat-shield...yeah, you are going to get knocked out a lot.

So you probably didn't do anything wrong, and messing around with stuff may not make a huge difference. This is one of those cases where you probably really should just pick what fits your concept and go for it.


In my opinion, I think it was my squishy teammates splitting up and going ham all of the time . . .

They would get knocked out like a toddler with a suicide wish and then I would have to bail them out which lead to me being focused on by all of the enemies . . .

Soon, the group just sort of expected me to charge out on my own and take all of the hits cause they learned that it is not good to get hit by stuff . . .

With my ac of 19, the DM focused on using high dex enemies as well as casters and did his best to make me do dex saves even in the place of spells that required con saves . . .

As the Dm found it difficult to balance the group (since he mostly did guess work rather than working out the difficulty ratings), he decided that he would give people "custom loot" to balance the team and because he didn't see me as being weak, he gave me a shield (+2ac) with lightning resistance and that was kind of it . . .

No enemy ever cast or dealt Lightning on me but instead resorted to poison damage that would give me mental problems? . .

My character had her right leg crippled by fish monsters and so 5ft of my movement was taken from me . . . (please note that other people were almost eaten whole but they didn't suffer any reprocusions)

And as stuff was getting worse for my character, I put all of my gold into getting a set of split armour to boost my ac to 20 as it was the only tangible thing I could do to boost my tankiness at the time and then my character kind of became stagnent in terms of progression from there . . .

Then he just started throwing enemies at us with incredibly high strength (and resistance to physical attacks) and so my character just got knacked anyway whilst the rest of my party decided to do silly things until I would get knocked out . . .

Then I would just have to walk around with 9 hp cause they wouldn't let my character rest and then we would have to fight things like Flail Snails with annoying AOE attacks . . .

and the group just sort of ended and I kind of took it from my experiance that I could of done better which I think I can now . . .


But yeah, getting knocked out was my thing . . .
 

Satyrn

First Post
Oh yeah. That certainly looks like inplay issues rather than anything mechanical.

It makes me think you should try making your champion something other than a tank. Like, play an elf champion with a high dex. wear leather or breastplate (until your Dex gets really high, breastplate is a great choice), and swap back and forth between long bow and twin short swords.

Huh, I just suggested you make my gnome battlemaster as an elf champion.

The, uh, gnome battlemaster who just died. But that's because I had him run straight into a barrage of gunfire -l ike, 10 guys all shooting me with a couple attacks each. Just don't do that and you'll be awesome.
 

In my opinion, I think it was my squishy teammates splitting up and going ham all of the time . . .

They would get knocked out like a toddler with a suicide wish and then I would have to bail them out which lead to me being focused on by all of the enemies . . .

Soon, the group just sort of expected me to charge out on my own and take all of the hits cause they learned that it is not good to get hit by stuff . . .

With my ac of 19, the DM focused on using high dex enemies as well as casters and did his best to make me do dex saves even in the place of spells that required con saves . . .

As the Dm found it difficult to balance the group (since he mostly did guess work rather than working out the difficulty ratings), he decided that he would give people "custom loot" to balance the team and because he didn't see me as being weak, he gave me a shield (+2ac) with lightning resistance and that was kind of it . . .

No enemy ever cast or dealt Lightning on me but instead resorted to poison damage that would give me mental problems? . .

My character had her right leg crippled by fish monsters and so 5ft of my movement was taken from me . . . (please note that other people were almost eaten whole but they didn't suffer any reprocusions)

And as stuff was getting worse for my character, I put all of my gold into getting a set of split armour to boost my ac to 20 as it was the only tangible thing I could do to boost my tankiness at the time and then my character kind of became stagnent in terms of progression from there . . .

Then he just started throwing enemies at us with incredibly high strength (and resistance to physical attacks) and so my character just got knacked anyway whilst the rest of my party decided to do silly things until I would get knocked out . . .

Then I would just have to walk around with 9 hp cause they wouldn't let my character rest and then we would have to fight things like Flail Snails with annoying AOE attacks . . .

and the group just sort of ended and I kind of took it from my experiance that I could of done better which I think I can now . . .


But yeah, getting knocked out was my thing . . .

If your DM is targeting your Champion in an attempt to weaken his/her impact...then the problem isn't an under-performing subclass. :)
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
In my opinion, I think it was my squishy teammates splitting up and going ham all of the time . . .

They would get knocked out like a toddler with a suicide wish and then I would have to bail them out which lead to me being focused on by all of the enemies . . .

Soon, the group just sort of expected me to charge out on my own and take all of the hits cause they learned that it is not good to get hit by stuff . . .

With my ac of 19, the DM focused on using high dex enemies as well as casters and did his best to make me do dex saves even in the place of spells that required con saves . . .

As the Dm found it difficult to balance the group (since he mostly did guess work rather than working out the difficulty ratings), he decided that he would give people "custom loot" to balance the team and because he didn't see me as being weak, he gave me a shield (+2ac) with lightning resistance and that was kind of it . . .

No enemy ever cast or dealt Lightning on me but instead resorted to poison damage that would give me mental problems? . .

My character had her right leg crippled by fish monsters and so 5ft of my movement was taken from me . . . (please note that other people were almost eaten whole but they didn't suffer any reprocusions)

And as stuff was getting worse for my character, I put all of my gold into getting a set of split armour to boost my ac to 20 as it was the only tangible thing I could do to boost my tankiness at the time and then my character kind of became stagnent in terms of progression from there . . .

Then he just started throwing enemies at us with incredibly high strength (and resistance to physical attacks) and so my character just got knacked anyway whilst the rest of my party decided to do silly things until I would get knocked out . . .

Then I would just have to walk around with 9 hp cause they wouldn't let my character rest and then we would have to fight things like Flail Snails with annoying AOE attacks . . .

and the group just sort of ended and I kind of took it from my experiance that I could of done better which I think I can now . . .


But yeah, getting knocked out was my thing . . .


So, what I'm hearing from all this is:

1) Your DM focused a lot of damage your way

2) Your DM rarely had you attacked by things via your high AC instead prefering saves which always did half and targeting you with effects you weren't resistant too

3) You got little to no support from your party, even (while being the only front liner) being forced to continue adventuring without so much as a short rest to recover your hp



And despite all that, you did not die.


Your champion sounds like an amazing character, who put up with far more than his share of adversity.


But, if you want advice, it really depends on what you are looking to build.

A Goliath or Hill Dwarf Champion with Defensive Style and Heavy Armor Master is going to be an impressively hard character to kill, especially if you grab durable or tough later on. Same if you multi-class into some barbarian for rage resistance, but then don't try Heavy Armor.

An Archer character is as simple as a high dex and the archery style, eventually I'd grab sharpshooter.

A good mix of defense and offense can be had with sword and board via duelist style.

Big damage can be a two handed weapon in the hands of a half-orc.

Each style gives something up, so what do you want to have. Big AC, Big Hp, Big Damage, or a versatile mix. Champion can do it all, it's just a matter of what kind of build you want.


Also, if you get to high level the extra saves, personal healing, and eventual Regen make you a tough individual to put down.
Each type of build
 

So, what I'm hearing from all this is:

1) Your DM focused a lot of damage your way

2) Your DM rarely had you attacked by things via your high AC instead prefering saves which always did half and targeting you with effects you weren't resistant too

3) You got little to no support from your party, even (while being the only front liner) being forced to continue adventuring without so much as a short rest to recover your hp



And despite all that, you did not die.


Your champion sounds like an amazing character, who put up with far more than his share of adversity.


But, if you want advice, it really depends on what you are looking to build.

A Goliath or Hill Dwarf Champion with Defensive Style and Heavy Armor Master is going to be an impressively hard character to kill, especially if you grab durable or tough later on. Same if you multi-class into some barbarian for rage resistance, but then don't try Heavy Armor.

An Archer character is as simple as a high dex and the archery style, eventually I'd grab sharpshooter.

A good mix of defense and offense can be had with sword and board via duelist style.

Big damage can be a two handed weapon in the hands of a half-orc.

Each style gives something up, so what do you want to have. Big AC, Big Hp, Big Damage, or a versatile mix. Champion can do it all, it's just a matter of what kind of build you want.


Also, if you get to high level the extra saves, personal healing, and eventual Regen make you a tough individual to put down.
Each type of build

(1,2,3)
I'm glad you have that opinion. I felt my character's efforts went unappreciated at the time. She spent most of her time broke, bruised and battered, got knocked out A LOT and was stuck with company that she considered to be rather insane . . . yet she pulled through. so thanks again.

As for what I want . . . I think I'm going with:

1. A Sword/Morning Star and Board Human Champion . . .

2. With Shield Master and Resilient to get most I can out of dex . . .

3. I would probably rush Defence for the (+1) and go for chainmail with a shield for that nice 19ac . . .

4. and then I would boost my Con and Strength from there and see what I can do from there.


Edit: The question is "Who is my character" now? :)
 
Last edited:

Chaosmancer

Legend
[MENTION=6870641]LegionError121[/MENTION]

Well, if you don't mind a little Pseudo-science reading...


Choice between Morningstar or Sword is very important in terms of flavor. Morningstars are brutal weapons, savage, the people who use them are not subtle and while they may not like causing pain, when they decide to fight it is going to be an ugly thing. Swords are more versatile in flavor, more standard, shield and sword could imply a more knightly or noble style of training, or simply the most basic tools for the job. A sword and shield are the most basic equipment for an adventurer, something basic and simple chosen for utility and and not much else.


Resilient Dex with a higher dex score is going to give you proficiency in all physical saves, and make this a very physical character. Maybe not a physical powerhouse at first, but someone who's well rounded and tough to pin down, a scrapper.

Shield Master has a few things. The knocking prone ability can imply a direct and brutal fighting style, knock em down, hit em while they're down, repeat until they stop moving. It feels methodical and unstoppable in a way, no fancy moves, no named forms or styles, just direct simplicity that hammers away at your enemies. The shield master evasion part though adds in another element, survival. Blasts of fire or lightning, you dodge and deflect what you couldn't doge, you move with your tools and your shield, allowing you to continue that inevitable march forward.

The High AC plays into this as well.


So, frankly, I'd pull on your previous character for inspiration "She spent most of her time broke, bruised and battered, yet she pulled through."

The exact details are up to you, but that feels like a good starting point. Someone who life has kicked down again and again, but somehow instead of breaking they've just been forged stronger and more unstoppable than before
 

clutchbone

First Post
(1,2,3)
She spent most of her time broke, bruised and battered, got knocked out A LOT and was stuck with company that she considered to be rather insane . . . yet she pulled through.

Edit: The question is "Who is my character" now? :)

Thematically, I think you answered your own question! Taken apart from your actual play experience (which does sound frustrating), that sentence you wrote is an excellent character synopsis.

Mechanically, shield master is great, and is even better with Champion as advantage from prone will give you more chances to use Improved Critical.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
If your DM is targeting your Champion in an attempt to weaken his/her impact...
Ironically, the DM targeting the fighter-type is traditionally doing him a favor, it's less ignominious to get KO'd (even constantly) protecting your party, than to be consistently bypassed and your party killed.
 

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