D&D (2024) How should a Summoner/Pet Class be implemented in 1DnD?

[Vael]

Devising mechanics right now, to me, is putting the cart before the horse. The first questions that should be answered are more theme and what we want to achieve.

To me, the Summoner is playing in the "It's not me, it's my pets/friends that are important". It's the Pokemon Gym Trainer, The Diablo 2 Necromancer that focused on Golems, Angel Summoner, the kid and the Iron Giant. So, yes, most of the time, it's one character managing one large summoned creature.

Second, what is being summoned? Are our pets:

• Undead?
• Manufactured Constructs like Golems?
• Elementals?
• Celestials?
• Something Else?

And are we trying to pick one, or put all of these under one umbrella class?

Third ... Are we expecting our summons to always be around, or more brought in for a short time to deal with the current encounter ... combat or otherwise?

Fourth ... Are we changing our pets, or have a specific one?

Finally ... how reliant are we on being able to summon our pet and what happens when our pet dies? How much character power is derived from the pet vs the PC?

 

[kigmatzomat]

As someone who has been a fan of summoning in various systems, in 5e I play a bard with Find Familiar, Summon Abherration, Find Greater Steed and Animate Object. I have one tiny permanent-ish ally, one large permanent-ish ally and a selection of temporary/concentration summons ranging from 10x tiny to 1x Huge creature. That uses the Guide to Everything books though and thr bardic secrets.

Lets just focus on the 1dd arcane list to see what a sorcerer/wizard, the base comparator, will have. Keep in mind the features of the base 1dd class.anything you propose is going to be compared to these spells.

1 - familiar (1st)- scales based on spell slot used but with no duration all wizards should be expected to have a max-level familiar 99%of the time. It is of average PC intelligence and can now attack, using the caster's Reaction.

AC 10+ Spell level (SL) (+2 if land based)
HP 2+ 2x SL (+1 escape/LR )
Attack: as caster spell attack
Damage 1+SL radiant/psychic/ necrotic

5 Animate Dead (3rd) not a Summon per se but it fits that "go fight for me" shtick. Does have the "evil" problem. They are CR 1/4 melees, don't use concentration, are usable up to 24hrs, and only need a bonus action to command. With multiple castings (and planning) you could get up to 4 of them at 5th level, though you are always down a 3rd level slot.
At higher levels and multiple spell slots you could keep a small army of them. Or just set em loose on your foes as automatic murder machines.

7 Conjure minor elemental (4th) These are mostly evil and fire based, which may be a problem thematically. It ranges from 8x cr1/4 mephits to 1x cr2 gargoyle. With higher level slots it doubles (6th = 16x cr1/4 - 2x cr2, 8th= 32x cr1/4 - 4x cr2).
Mephits have some minor specials and spells with low save DCs but when you have 8x of them, the odds change. Sleep, blindness, restrained all let you play RNG lotto.
Compare the effectiveness of many 8th level spells applied to an army vs sending 32 mephits to cast 32x Sleep spells, followed by 32x blinding dust cones then slaughter all the unconscious ones and blinded soldiers.

9 Animate Object (5th). Can have 10x tiny constructs up to 1x Huge construct. They are not great outside combat, are slow (speed 20) but are either mobile cover/hp, act as disposable flankers for melees, can surround one target and puree it, or provide weird benefits like doors that open themselves/fight people who want to open them. (I once animated a portcullis. Made castle entry easy and kept the guards busy)

9 Conjure Elemental (5th) summons a single Cr5 elemental. These are generally large, have more HP than the summoner, have many resistances and can dish out a lot of damage.
They can also run amok, so there's that.


11 create undead (5th) -again, hits the "do my bidding" role. Create an (evil) CR 1 melee that has paralysis, no concentration, usable for 24 hours, only needs a bonus action to issue orders. Can have up to three CR1 either planning & time. Using higher level slots you can have more CR1or go up to two CR2 mummies.
I dont think this is worth it for direct control but as far as vicious permanent traps or just dropping them into an enemy's camp, they are great.

13 simulacrum (7th) not a Summon but again, close enough. It is permanent-ish (can only have one at a time), doesn't require concentration, and can recreate, well, any humanoid. Did you once sweep the floor after Conan got a haircut? Well, you can make a half-hp version of Conan but with all his attacks, class features, etc. Same goes for Mordenkainen. Spells don't recover but so freaking what! Make a dupe of yourself and essentially double your spell casting for a fight. Or have spare cleric. A disposable thief!
They aren't worth healing in most cases but that's ok. The 1,000gp cost is negligible for the tesults.

17 Gate & Wish - both are very hazy in rules terms but can result in suddenly bamfing in some high level outsider. Gating in a high CR celestial while fighting demons/undead is probably a safe bet, though you may get the "lose my number or face my wrath" speech.

 

[kigmatzomat]

And fwiw, I lean towards summoning hordes. I dont want a pet. Any class focused on summoning a single ally has lost me.

As for table speed, any leveled character is rolling, or causing to be rolled, a lot of dice.
the wizard/sorcerer casts fireball, forcing 2-20 creaturs to roll saves, then rolls a fistful of damage dice. The melees and warlocks have multiple attacks with multiple damage rolls, some including saves. The cleric calls up spirit guardians forcing saves on anyone nearby, adds a spiritual weapon and whacks something with their weapon or another spell.

So the argument that multiple summons will slow down a game doesn't hold water to me.

Although the 32x mephits is admittedly ridiculous but with cr 1/4 it's only going to be used in ridiculous scenarios, like shattering an army.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Devising mechanics right now, to me, is putting the cart before the horse. The first questions that should be answered are more theme and what we want to achieve.

To me, the Summoner is playing in the "It's not me, it's my pets/friends that are important". It's the Pokemon Gym Trainer, The Diablo 2 Necromancer that focused on Golems, Angel Summoner, the kid and the Iron Giant. So, yes, most of the time, it's one character managing one large summoned creature.

Yeah, basically agree.

Second, what is being summoned? Are our pets:

• Undead?
• Manufactured Constructs like Golems?
• Elementals?
• Celestials?
• Something Else?

And are we trying to pick one, or put all of these under one umbrella class?

i'd be trying to put these all into one class, just have a single main statblock for the summon with applyable templates to adjust their properties to fit each theme.

Third ... Are we expecting our summons to always be around, or more brought in for a short time to deal with the current encounter ... combat or otherwise?

Fourth ... Are we changing our pets, or have a specific one?

these two points i think should be decided by subclass, different sublasses for having a permanent companion, one to call your summon when required, one having multiple summons with different traits you can switch in and out, one subclass where you can fight up close with your summon

Finally ... how reliant are we on being able to summon our pet and what happens when our pet dies? How much character power is derived from the pet vs the PC?

most of the power i think should be in the 'pet' itself, either it's a summoned creature that dissappears or it's 'real' and we say it just gets knocked out at 0hp until it recovers but like i said above i think the question of 'summoned or permanent' is more of a subclass question, regardless of that i think there should be some 'always available' abilities available to the summoner that while they might require the summon, dont necassarily require them to 'be summoned' as it were, to reference pokemon, your pokemon can still use HMs and field moves to assist even when they've been fainted, so say your summon is a wolf, it might be too injured to fight in a battle but it can still sniff out and track a scent.

 

[TwoSix]

The Golemsmith Inventor from Kibblestasty is probably my preferred iteration on how to handle the action economy for a pet-oriented class. The golem acts on the same turn as the character. It can move for free, but it costs the character's action or reaction to be able to use the golem's action or reaction.

At level 5, instead of gaining Extra Attack, the golem can now use its action or reaction freely, as long as it is within 60 feet of the character (who mentally commands it).

 

[Tonguez]

While I do like a ‘Companion Pet’ I do want to be able to summon a pack when its appropriate, its just that the one pet approach is easy to balance and less work on the table.

I do like the approach used for the Ranger Swarmkeeper which essential just reskinsi spells as a swarm of things, which means the Player doesnt get any more actions than they would normally. The Drakewarden can dodge but the player needs a bonus action to command it to do something else.

Personally I’d use Conjure Animal as is for start, with the bonus action command proviso. At higher levels add other Beasts and then allow the summoner to infuse their animal with Elemental traits To create a lightning rat or fire hawk or necrotic ooze etc
The main thing is the action economy since a summoned creature is another character unless it is required to use the summoners actions to do anything

 

[Frozen_Heart]

One interesting part of the Pathfinder summoner is that there is an option to 'meld' into the summon.

With some modification, the pet class could double as the 'play as a monster' class.

It could also work as a 'mounted combatant' class.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

So this is the next in a series of thread about how to implement certain commonly requested class concepts in 1DnD, in order to see how people want certain class/subclass concepts handled in the new system. I'm focusing on the most suggested and talked about classes first, and maybe I'll move onto some more obscure ones later.

The Summoner is a class concept which I see mentioned quite a lot, and from what I can see has its origins in Pathfinder rather than DnD. However rather than 'summoning' hordes of minions, it seems to focus on having a single 'pet' which provides the majority of the class power budget. This pet is then upgraded and improved over time with a large choice of abilities to give it. With different creature types being different 'subclasses'.

DnD 5e has several 'pet subclasses', but due to subclasses only being a small part of the power budget, the pet is never the focus of the classes power, leaving this archetype badly filled compared to Pathfinder, which is why it seems to be one I see pop up more often in class requests.

So in 1DnD, how should the concept of a summoner/pet class be handled? Continue to split it among subclasses, or give it a dedicated class?

Other Threads:

Artificer - https://www.enworld.org/threads/how-should-the-artificer-be-implemented-in-1dnd.696630/
Psion/Mystic - https://www.enworld.org/threads/how-should-the-psion-mystic-be-implemented-in-1dnd.697153/
Warlord - https://www.enworld.org/threads/how-should-the-warlord-be-implemented-in-1dnd.697300/

For my rupees, I’d build it around the find familiar spell, as a spellcaster, with special rules for casting through the familiar, casting self spells on the familiar, etc.

Ability to spend spell slots to boost the familiar.

Ability to basically wildshape the familiar, keeping all the benefits of being your familiar.

Eventually get to duplicate the familiar. (Even if a swarm)

A horde or swarm can be treated as a permeable creature that takes up a lot of space, and its attacks are always AoEs.
Fireball doesn’t slow down the game because every creature isn’t taking a turn. Swarms work better when they are a huge+ creature that can share spaces and any creature within 5ft of it must save when it attacks.

Even hordes of intelligent beings just need a captain that answers to you, and the rest act as a unit.

Don’t make what you summon the subclass, IMO that’s boring.

Subclass is how you use your summons, with room for oddball subclasses. So, hordes could be a subclass because you’re still choosing creature type within the base class.

Other subclasses:

• Merge with the familiar into a new super monster
• Make the familiar able to possess enemies
• Share traits, like a blink dog pet makes it so you can teleport, etc.
• Become same type of creature as the pet
• Ride the pet
• Duplicate yourself, ie you are the pet
• Duplicate enemies, with ability to determine CR and HP and such before deciding who to duplicate. Some kind of backup like recreating a past duplicate. Yeah you can duplicate anything you’ve fought (within some CR limits), so if you fight a boss that you can’t duplicate, you duplicate their mini-boss minion from last adventure.

Any spell that summons or creates a thing, you can choose to cast it to transform your pet instead.

I’d want a second low level choice of some kind, but idk what. Definitely not creature type.

 

[MechaTarrasque]

A syntheist summoner seems like it gives the most benefits to the player who wants to play a summoning PC (you are effectively playing a monster, you can still talk to the pet [from inside it], and you can customize it] with the least annoyance to everyone else. Most customizations would be smite-style spells that are cast on a bonus action, letting the pet use its action/reactions for combat; these can be "class spells" like the mages get (and thus the summoner gets to be a mage). Bigger changes can come from transmutation or abjuration spells from the arcane list (obviously any spell with range: self can apply to the pet, since you will be wearing it).

I could see subclasses being big brute (your pet is large), valor (your pet has a weapon), stealth, and chaos (your pet can temporarily change your body, so it and you could act like an ooze or be one size smaller)

 

[Scott Christian]

My opinion is that a summoned pet should be like your friend. You don't want it to get hurt, and when it dies you feel something. It's very hard to do this with 5e rules. But if I had to try:
A summoned pet has x hit points and armor class. It can do all sorts of things, as you can talk to it telepathically (or for a grittier version, it reads your body language and knows certain words). If the player wishes to unsummon the pet and place it back into their (wherever it's held, be it gem, portal, etc.) they must use their action to do so. If the pet dies, the player loses one constitution point or something else to make the player care).
I think something like this goes a long way in to making a pet be a pet, not just something to throw away. It would make for hard decisions on when to use that action. It would make for hard decisions on when to bring your pet into a battle or dangerous situation. Right now, these summoned things and pets are no more than a shadow servant that feels nothing, needs nothing, or cares for nothing, basically because, nothing feels, needs, or cares for it.