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Immortals Handbook - Ascension Discussion

jedrious

First Post
Upper_Krust said:
Thats impossible, there are far too many prereqs - it'll just mess everything up and the tables will just look utterly ridiculous.
which brings us back to eaither removing the prerequisites column or removing the table, having a table with wrong prerequisites is a horrid idea

Upper_Krust said:
I just need to find the post (will look for it when I have all the other changes sorted).
I'll find it and repost it in this thread for ease of reference

Upper_Krust said:
They may have been damaged on the previous round, hence the regeneration.
as others have stated this turns into an accounting nightmare which is why I recomended changing it to fast healing

Upper_Krust said:
I had already made my feats before they came out with theirs and I cannot reference theirs in my book.
Not referencing them isn't so much of an issue, the problem occurs when someone takes theirs and then takes yours, the DM then references just the one and doesn't reference the other, simply writing it in as printed(which I have seen quite a few third party books do), or writing their ability as a prerequisite and superscripting for a footnote for where to find the feat(which I have also seen many third party books do) would make for a more refined and informed product

Upper_Krust said:
Brood are my name for Slaad and I similarly equate Fey with Eladrin. Slaad and Eladrin are not OGL therefore I cannot mention them.
the OGL names I can understand you not wanting to use, however as a matter of balance writing out the Brood traits in a sidebar(since the Beastiary is already written) and creating your own CG outsider faction/race with comparable traits to the eladrin would be better than assigning fey traits, the sheer scale of the traits from the others far outweigh those of fey traits that it's like punishing someone for being CG

the Psionics Portfolio can be found Here
and the altered Psionics Feats and Abilities
Jedrious said:
Metapsionic Freedom[Epic] (SU)
You can more readily modify your powers
Prerequisites: any four metapsionic feats, Psicraft 25 Ranks
Benefit: You no longer need to expend your psionic focus to apply a metapsionic feat to a power, in addition you can apply a metapsionic feat to a power multiple times.

Divine Catapsi[Divine] (SU)
Your presence interferes with the mental powers of those around you
Prerequisites: Cha 40, Divine Aura
Benefit: Enemies within your Divine Aura find it harder to manifest their Psionic Powers and Psi-like Abilities, whenever an enemy manifests a Psionic Power within your aura they must spend additional power points equal to your Divine Bonus, these power points count towards your power point limit for that power, enemies attempting to use Psi-like Abilities in your aura find their effects reduced, a Psi-like Ability has its effective manifester level reduced by your Divine Bonus, if this would reduce the effective manifester level to lower than the minimum required to manifest that power, then the ability fails.

Divine Manifester[Divine] (SU)
You are a great Psionicist
Prerequisites: Psicraft 40 Ranks
Benefit: Double your number of Psionic Power Points

Divine Metafaculty[Divine] (SU)
You have tapped into the universal knowledge
Prerequisites: Psicraft 40 Ranks
Benefit: Double your number of Psionic Powers known.

Power Block[Divine] (EX)
Deny a power the right to affect you.
Prerequisites: Knowing the power you are blocking, Int 40, Spell Resistance 40, Psicraft 40 Ranks
Benefit: You can choose any power you know, you are now immune to that power as if you hade infinite Spell Resistance against that power.
Special: You can take this ability multiple times, its effects do not stack. Each time you take this ability it applies to a different power.

Power Immunity[Divine] (EX)
You have built up an immunity to Psionic Power
Prerequisites: Int 40 Spell Resistance 40, Psicraft 40 Ranks
Benefit: You are immune to Psionic Powers and Psi-like Abilities with an effective Psionic power point cost of 3 or less(as if you had infinite Spell Resistance)
Special: You make take this ability multiple times, its effects stack. Each time you take this ability increase the threshold you are immune to by 4 Psionic power points. You cannot be immune to an effective Psionic power point cost beyond double your divine rank plus 1.

Prerequisites:
Power Shot[Divine] (SU)
Your missiles are powered by your mind
Prerequisites: Int 11, Psicraft 25 Ranks
Benefit: You can shoot Powers with a Psionic power point cost of 1 as if they were missiles.
Special: You can take this ability multiple times, its effects stack. Each time you take this ability increase the number of Psionic power points you can shoot by 2. The Intelligence prerequisite increases by 1 each time you take this ability.

Psionic Lord[Divine] (EX)
You body is infused with psionic power
Prerequisites: (Psionic) subtype
Benefit: You gain the Phrenic template.
Special: The Phrenic template is found in the Expanded Psionics Handbook

Erudition[Cosmic] (SU)
You know all powers
Prerequisites: Divine Metafaculty, Int 70, Imprint Stone, Psicraf 70 Ranks
Benefit: You know all Psionic Powers from all classes and disciplines.

Cosmic Metaconcert[Cosmic] (SU)
Your mind is tireless
Prerequisites: Int 70, Divine Manifester, Psicraft 70 Ranks
Benefit: You have infinite Psionic power points

Psionic Static[Cosmic] (SU)
Your aura nullifies psionics
Prerequisites: Cha 70, Divine Aura, Divine Catapsi
Benefit: Your divine aura radiates a null-psioncs field which does not impede your own non-epic items and powers.
Special: Null-psionics generally does not work on immortals much as anti-magic (see page 26)

Additionally a Sidebar on Transparency

Partial Transparency

It is the assumption of these rules that Psionics and Magic are different, spell effects that can be used to end other spell effects are ineffective towards psionic powers and vice versa, anti-magic does not affect psionics and null-psioncs does not affect magic, however dead magic zones are equally effective for both magic and psionics.
The exception to this being Spell Resistance, which is an expression of a creature's ability to ward off unnatural effects and is therefore just as effective towards psionics, treat any creature with Spell Resistance to have an equal value of Power Resistance.
 
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Alzrius

The EN World kitten
I haven't mentioned much regarding the Psionics use in Ascension, for a good reason...which, unfortunately, I can't remember now.

So, that said, some thoughts. Firstly, a Psionics portfolio isn't a bad idea, but I'm not certain making it the natural enemy of magic is wise. A lot of people don't seem to like psionics for some reason, and so it should be able to be ignored by those people. There should, I think, be a Science portfolio, and a Psionics portfolio, separately, with the former having no psionic content whatsoever. In terms of being the opposed portfolio to magic, they should be listed as alternate choices (e.g. "Science/Psionics") so people can choose which they want.

Jedrous, some thoughts on what you posted:

Your version of Metapsionic Freedom isn't bad, but the existing version allows you to stack multiple instances of the same metapsionic feat, which is what the Meta- Freedom feat is supposed to do for psionics and magic. I suggest changing the name of your feat to "Metapsionic Focus."

None of the powers you listed have ability tags after them (e.g. Ex, Su, etc).

Both Power Block and Power Immunity refer to "spell resistance" where they should say "power resistance."

There's a number of other minor spelling, grammar, and stylistic errors in there (e.g. wrong things are capitalized ("Psionic Power Points," etc).

It might also be interesting to have a power that selectively uses the "Psionics are Different" rules in your favor, though I suspect that might be more trouble than it's worth.
 

jedrious

First Post
Alzrius said:
I haven't mentioned much regarding the Psionics use in Ascension, for a good reason...which, unfortunately, I can't remember now.

So, that said, some thoughts. Firstly, a Psionics portfolio isn't a bad idea, but I'm not certain making it the natural enemy of magic is wise. A lot of people don't seem to like psionics for some reason, and so it should be able to be ignored by those people. There should, I think, be a Science portfolio, and a Psionics portfolio, separately, with the former having no psionic content whatsoever. In terms of being the opposed portfolio to magic, they should be listed as alternate choices (e.g. "Science/Psionics") so people can choose which they want.

Jedrous, some thoughts on what you posted:

Your version of Metapsionic Freedom isn't bad, but the existing version allows you to stack multiple instances of the same metapsionic feat, which is what the Meta- Freedom feat is supposed to do for psionics and magic. I suggest changing the name of your feat to "Metapsionic Focus."

None of the powers you listed have ability tags after them (e.g. Ex, Su, etc).

Both Power Block and Power Immunity refer to "spell resistance" where they should say "power resistance."

There's a number of other minor spelling, grammar, and stylistic errors in there (e.g. wrong things are capitalized ("Psionic Power Points," etc).

It might also be interesting to have a power that selectively uses the "Psionics are Different" rules in your favor, though I suspect that might be more trouble than it's worth.
Several of your points have merit, however in regard to the Spell and Power Resistance portion, Partial Transparency is most likely the best way to go, Null-Psionics fields shouldn't affect Magic, and Anti-magic shouldn't affect Psionics, but SR is a creature's natural ability to repel supranormal forces from affecting them and should therefore be synonomous

The tags I'll go back and edit in and I'll see about the spelling, grammar and stylistic errors(although I am not an english major so mistakes might creep in)
 

Hey guys! :)

Thanks again.

I should be updating in an hour or two, I think I have everything sorted but for some of the Dominion to Realm text conversions (and the 8th and 9th sense clarifications...tricky those).

I have added the Psionics Portfolio and Psionics powers in an Appendix at the end of the pdf/book. I'm still not sure what I'll do with the Science Portfolio.

By the way, those of you who have not been added into the special thanks part of the credits should email or private message me with your names. That goes for pretty much everyone who has posted some feedback or other of late. ;)
 

Hey guys! :)

I just updated witha 2.95 beta. I still have about a dozen of the Dominion - Realm conversions to type up then I am going to move the Portfolio tables up each page (so any whitespace is at the bottom) and then I'll update with 3.0 beta. I'll do that tomorrow.

I have emailed it to Alzrius (and a few others) but since I'm updating again tomorrow, the bulk of those who purchased it via email I hope won't feel too badly about waiting for tomorrow. :uhoh:
 

Looks good, although in Irony, I found one (hopefully)last copy-paste error - Transcendent Effect - the power itself (not the table entry) has the same description as Writhing Effect. (It talks about foes writhing in agony)
Other then that, I didn't spot anything that really stood out. You may want to take a break before you update, and double check the realm sections. Example: The Luck Portfolio's Realm Section has a Hazards entry, but it is an old hang-on from the Dominion Section, and would need correction. (But would look alright at first glance)
 

Alzrius

The EN World kitten
Okay, let's go over the material in the Psionics appendix first.

Psionics Portfolio

I'm not sure why Lammas is listed as being the favored time of the Psionics portfolio, since it's the day that celebrates the first wheat harvest. A better day might be the spring/fall equinox (as those days represent balance).

The Psionic Domain's power is not a good one. There's little benefit to making all spell-like abilities into psi-like abilities, particularly since the default assumption is that psionics and magic have full transparency. Besides, most mortal characters who'd take such a domain wouldn't get any benefit from that anyway. Far better to, say, make it give you Use Psionic Device as a class skill.

The 6th-level domain power is misspelled. It's "disintegrate, psionic."

I think the 7th-level power should be changed to ultrablast rather than divert teleport.

For the Hazards line (under the Dominion header), I recommend something akin the following: "Magic-using beings are targeted by native creatures, who see magic as a threat to psionics."

For the Inhabitants line, it's mostly fine as it is, but could be tweaked a bit: "All manner of phrenic creatures inhabit this realm."

For the portfolio's powers, the Aversion to Magic power (the first weakness for disciples) should be as follows:

"Magic Vulnerability: Suffer 50% extra damage from spells and spell-like abilities.

I recommend changing the Prophet ability (Magic Ward) to the following (since otherwise the existing power would run counter to the weakness listed above):

"Power Block - You automatically block the first psionic power used against you each round."

The Hero-deity ability should be named "Scion of Psionics" rather than "Scion of Psions."

The Quasi-deity ability should be called "Improved Summoning (Psionics)."

For the Demi-deity ability, I recommend changing the name to "Embodiment of the Mind," and the ability description to "Immunities against your mind-affecting effects only 50% effective."

For the double portfolio listings, the Prophet ability should be as follows:

"Power Reflection - You reflect back any power that does not defeat your power resistance."

The Hero-deity ability in the Double Psionics portfolio should be called "Greater Scion of Psionics."

The Quasi-deity ability for the Double Psionics portfolio should be called "Perfect Summoning (psionics)."

For the Demi-deity ability in the Double Psionics portfolio, I recommend changing the name to Perfect Embodiment of the Mind, and change the text to read as follows: "Immunities against your mind-affecting effects totally ineffective."

I also recommend adding, as a note somewhere on this page, that an immortal who takes this portfolio gains the Psionic subtype, and has their spell-like abilities become psi-like abilities, and their spell resistance becomes power resistance.

Psionic Abilities

The Metapsionic Freedom epic feat should be renamed "Metapsionic Focus," and the Benefits line should simply read "You no longer need to expend your psionic focus to apply a metapsionic feat to a power."

Personally, U_K, I also recommend reprinting the Automatic Metapsionic Capacity and Metapsionic Freedom feats in this section also.

In Table A-3 and in the Prerequisites line of the Psionic Static cosmic power, "Divine Catapsi" is misspelled.

In Table A-3, the Benefit line for Power Block should say, "You can block one power per round."

In Table A-3, the Benefit line for Power Immunity should say, "You are immune to powers of a certain level."

The Benefit entry for Divine Catapsi is one long sentence. It should be punctuated as follows: "Enemies within your Divine Aura find it harder to manifest their psionic powers and psi-like abilities. Whenever an enemy manifests a psionic power within your aura they must spend additional power points equal to your divine bonus. These power points count towards their power point limit for that power. Enemies attempting to use psi-like abilities in your aura find their effects reduced; a psi-like ability has its effective manifester level reduced by your divine bonus. If this would reduce the effective manifester level to lower than the minimum required to manifest that power, then the ability fails."

In the Prerequisite and Benefit lines of the Power Block ability, change "spell resistance" to "power resistance."

For the Power Immunity ability, change the Benefit line to read "You become immune to all 1st-level powers (as if you have Infinite Power Resistance)." Likewise, the Special line should read "You can take this ability multiple times and its effects stack. Each time you take it you become immune to the next two higher power levels as well. You cannot be immune to more power levels than you have divine ranks." This is because the current wording (dealing with power points) is vague, creating doubts regarding whether augmented powers (and powers used in conjunction with metapsionic feats) fall under that guideline.

In the "Benefit" and "Special" lines for the Power Shot ability, the words "Powers" and "Psionic" should not have their first letter capitalized.



As an aside, I don't recommend using the sidebar that Jedrous posted above regarding magic/psionic transparency. The default rules are that magic and psionics are totally transparent, and the alternate rules for making them not be so are in the XPH; moreover, those rules aren't OGC, so I think the entire thing is best left alone.
 
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Alzrius

The EN World kitten
Transmortality is listed as being a (Su) power. It should be (Ex).

Table 4-6: New Epic Feats notes that the prerequisites for Superior Sunder are "Greater Sunder, Str 25." However, the listing for Greater Sunder notes that the prerequisites are just Str 25. Moreover, the description for Superior Sunder in Table 4-6 should say "Missed attacks are treated as sunder attempts."

For the Greater Aura divine ability, the text for "sleep" says that those affected are "unable to act." While I suppose this is true, that wording is awkward. I'd recommend replacing it with "fall asleep."
 

jedrious

First Post
ok, I don't particularly want to rehash my points from the old thread (especially since the entire discussion spawned a two-page arguement between myself and dante) but let me adress you point by point.

Alzrius said:
As an aside, I don't recommend using the sidebar that Jedrous posted above regarding magic/psionic transparency. The default rules are that magic and psionics are totally transparent, and the alternate rules for making them not be so are in the XPH; moreover, those rules aren't OGC, so I think the entire thing is best left alone.

In the Prerequisite and Benefit lines of the Power Block ability, change "spell resistance" to "power resistance."

One of the deeprooted themes among portfolios is an opposition to each other, having magic/psionics opacity is a perfect method for showcasing this

Alzrius said:
For the Power Immunity ability, change the Benefit line to read "You become immune to all 1st-level powers (as if you have Infinite Power Resistance)." Likewise, the Special line should read "You can take this ability multiple times and its effects stack. Each time you take it you become immune to the next two higher power levels as well. You cannot be immune to more power levels than you have divine ranks." This is because the current wording (dealing with power points) is vague, creating doubts regarding whether augmented powers (and powers used in conjunction with metapsionic feats) fall under that guideline.

I actually worded it so that powers that are augmented/metapsioniced can bypass this, since powers that are augmented/metapsioniced do actually utilize and possess more power.

Alzrius said:
The Benefit entry for Divine Catapsi is one long sentence. It should be punctuated as follows: "Enemies within your Divine Aura find it harder to manifest their psionic powers and psi-like abilities. Whenever an enemy manifests a psionic power within your aura they must spend additional power points equal to your divine bonus. These power points count towards their power point limit for that power. Enemies attempting to use psi-like abilities in your aura find their effects reduced; a psi-like ability has its effective manifester level reduced by your divine bonus. If this would reduce the effective manifester level to lower than the minimum required to manifest that power, then the ability fails."

I conceed this point (I did mention before that I am not an english major)

alzrius said:
I'm not sure why Lammas is listed as being the favored time of the Psionics portfolio, since it's the day that celebrates the first wheat harvest. A better day might be the spring/fall equinox (as those days represent balance).

honestly much of that section I merely pasted from the science portfolio

Alzrius said:
The Psionic Domain's power is not a good one. There's little benefit to making all spell-like abilities into psi-like abilities, particularly since the default assumption is that psionics and magic have full transparency. Besides, most mortal characters who'd take such a domain wouldn't get any benefit from that anyway. Far better to, say, make it give you Use Psionic Device as a class skill.

This was done in anticipation of the Old One ability of Magic Pariah, one of the concerns with the science portfolio was that an Old One lost all of their magical abilities

Alzrius said:
The 6th-level domain power is misspelled. It's "disintegrate, psionic."
Conceed (not English Major, CNEM in future reference)

Alzrius said:
I think the 7th-level power should be changed to ultrablast rather than divert teleport.
I have two reasons for choosing Divert Teleport over Ultrablast for a couple of reasons, for one I wanted to showcase some of the more unique powers that Psionics possess, and my second reason for not using Ultrablast is that it would be the third power in a row that's specifically designed to deal damage

Alzrius said:
For the Hazards line (under the Dominion header), I recommend something akin the following: "Magic-using beings are targeted by native creatures, who see magic as a threat to psionics."

For the Inhabitants line, it's mostly fine as it is, but could be tweaked a bit: "All manner of phrenic creatures inhabit this realm."
I have no issue with these suggestions

alzrius said:
For the portfolio's powers, the Aversion to Magic power (the first weakness for disciples) should be as follows:

"Magic Vulnerability: Suffer 50% extra damage from spells and spell-like abilities.

I recommend changing the Prophet ability (Magic Ward) to the following (since otherwise the existing power would run counter to the weakness listed above):

"Power Block - You automatically block the first psionic power used against you each round."

For the double portfolio listings, the Prophet ability should be as follows:

"Power Reflection - You reflect back any power that does not defeat your power resistance."
No issue with this either

Alzrius said:
The Hero-deity ability should be named "Scion of Psionics" rather than "Scion of Psions."

The Quasi-deity ability should be called "Improved Summoning (Psionics)."

The Hero-deity ability in the Double Psionics portfolio should be called "Greater Scion of Psionics."

The Quasi-deity ability for the Double Psionics portfolio should be called "Perfect Summoning (psionics)."
Not worried about naming conventions, though I personally prefer Bretheren to Improved Summoning

Alzrius said:
For the Demi-deity ability, I recommend changing the name to "Embodiment of the Mind," and the ability description to "Immunities against your mind-affecting effects only 50% effective."

For the Demi-deity ability in the Double Psionics portfolio, I recommend changing the name to Perfect Embodiment of the Mind, and change the text to read as follows: "Immunities against your mind-affecting effects totally ineffective."
I have a severe problem with this, Psionics are not all about [Mind-Affecting] in any true incarnation, we have several practiced forms of Psychic abilities even in our world: Telepathy, Mind over Matter, Remote Viewing, Telekinesis, Astral Projection, Energy Manipulation, and Aurasight. (My minor is Paranormal Science so I have a bit of insight into this that others may not)

[/quote=Alzrius]
I also recommend adding, as a note somewhere on this page, that an immortal who takes this portfolio gains the Psionic subtype, and has their spell-like abilities become psi-like abilities, and their spell resistance becomes power resistance.[/quote]

This could easily be the Domain power (although it's a bit wordy for a domain power) although consider this: The Domain power as written converts the spell-likes to Psi-likes; anyone possessing Psi-like abilities automatically gains the (Psionic) subtype, and whether you use full transparency as you suggest or my suggested partial transparency, then both SR and PR are identical and therefore the change in verbage might just be a waste

Alzrius said:
The Metapsionic Freedom epic feat should be renamed "Metapsionic Focus," and the Benefits line should simply read "You no longer need to expend your psionic focus to apply a metapsionic feat to a power."

Personally, U_K, I also recommend reprinting the Automatic Metapsionic Capacity and Metapsionic Freedom feats in this section also.

looks good to me


Alzrius said:
In Table A-3 and in the Prerequisites line of the Psionic Static cosmic power, "Divine Catapsi" is misspelled.

In Table A-3, the Benefit line for Power Block should say, "You can block one power per round."

In Table A-3, the Benefit line for Power Immunity should say, "You are immune to powers of a certain level."
I'm not part of the group that got 2.95 e-mailed to me so not sure how these tables look although I immagine the benefit line for my version of Power Immunity would read "Only psionic powers of sufficient strength can affect you."

alzrius said:
In the "Benefit" and "Special" lines for the Power Shot ability, the words "Powers" and "Psionic" should not have their first letter capitalized.
CNEM
 

Alzrius

The EN World kitten
The changes I listed for the Psionics weren't meant to spark a debate. They're just me acting in my capacity as the book's editor; these are the changes that (I believe) best represent the rules as written, best mesh with other rules, and best work in terms of stylistic presentation.

jedrous said:
One of the deeprooted themes among portfolios is an opposition to each other, having magic/psionics opacity is a perfect method for showcasing this

That might be so, but the RAW has them being transparent. Forcibly deviating from that specifically for this product is going to make this more difficult for people who want to use it that way. There's already a section on making psionics and magic not be transparent within the XPH for those that want things that way. Hence, I don't think it's a good idea to force that interpretation on other people.

jedrous said:
I actually worded it so that powers that are augmented/metapsioniced can bypass this, since powers that are augmented/metapsioniced do actually utilize and possess more power.

By that logic, any metamagicked spell should also bypass things that stop spells of a lower level (e.g. that maximized fireball should overcome Spell Immunity if it's taken twice). It's also, as I said, ambiguous as it's worded now.

jedrous said:
This was done in anticipation of the Old One ability of Magic Pariah, one of the concerns with the science portfolio was that an Old One lost all of their magical abilities

Magic Pariah stops magic from working in your realm, though since sidereals are always considered to be in their divine realm, I suppose that'd be true there.

Irregardless, there's still the problem that mortals taking that domain would find little benefit from it. Likewise, not everyone who has the portfolio will necessarily be an Old One. As it stands, magic spell-like abilities into psi-like abilities isn't much of a change. I recommended that any immortal taking that portfolio have that (and have their spell resistance be power resistance) automatically.

jedrous said:
I have a severe problem with this, Psionics are not all about [Mind-Affecting] in any true incarnation, we have several practiced forms of Psychic abilities even in our world: Telepathy, Mind over Matter, Remote Viewing, Telekinesis, Astral Projection, Energy Manipulation, and Aurasight. (My minor is Paranormal Science so I have a bit of insight into this that others may not)

I'm not so much concerned with how psionics is "themed" as I am with the rules, here. The existing power states that your powers affect "psionics immune targets." To the best of my knowledge, there are no such creatures that have blanket psionic immunity - the closest equivalent are golems (and similar constructs) that have magic immunity, and that'd apply to psionics under the transparency rules (though by your standard, they wouldn't even have that). Simply put, the powers for demi-deities, as written, let's them breach an immunity that doesn't seem to exist.

jedrous said:
This could easily be the Domain power (although it's a bit wordy for a domain power) although consider this: The Domain power as written converts the spell-likes to Psi-likes; anyone possessing Psi-like abilities automatically gains the (Psionic) subtype, and whether you use full transparency as you suggest or my suggested partial transparency, then both SR and PR are identical and therefore the change in verbage might just be a waste

I don't think this'd make a good domain power, again simply because from a mortal perspective that'd be relatively useful - doubly so since, as you noted, under the transparency rules that'd be useless.

On that note, it's true that if you leave up the transparency between psionics and magic, there'd be little point to those changes (hence why I didn't want them to be a power). However, some portion of players won't be using those. Hence, it's worth making the changes anyway, as a nod to those people, without affecting everyone else who is using transparency. It's also the standard way the rules for psionics are written, so it makes for good presentation.
 

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