Immortals Handbook - Grimoire (Artifacts, Epic Magic discussion)

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

The 4 artifact limit seems really artificial, but it is basically the "wealth by level" guidelines, but streamlined: Ex: It says you can't have any single item worth more than 1/3rd your total starting wealth. At 20th level, this means ~200k, the price for a +5 weapon with +5 worth of crap attached. Heck, you have about enough gold at that level for about 4 of those. (3 and a partial, actually. Who needs 3 +10 weapons, anyway?)

Essentially, the 4 artifact limit just says: "You were going to be reinvesting in your equipment every 3 levels anyway, so pick the four most important ones and save me the time of calculating their gold cost in Excel."

Also, I don't know how much U_K is going to touch on Epic Spellcasting in Grimoire, since Epic level buff spells become more common, and problematic, the higher level you get.
Didn't take that Belt of Hecatonchieres' Strength as one of your artifacts? Not a problem! The wizard will just cast a persistent, or permanent, +40 to strength spell on you!
(of course, said buff could be dispelled, but your foe generally has to know you have such a spell on you to do so)

 

[Kerrick]

The 4 artifact limit seems really artificial, but it is basically the "wealth by level" guidelines, but streamlined: Ex: It says you can't have any single item worth more than 1/3rd your total starting wealth.

I thought it was 1/2? If it *is* 1/3 (and perhaps it should be), that would make my job sooo much easier.

Also, I don't know how much U_K is going to touch on Epic Spellcasting in Grimoire, since Epic level buff spells become more common, and problematic, the higher level you get.
Didn't take that Belt of Hecatonchieres' Strength as one of your artifacts? Not a problem! The wizard will just cast a persistent, or permanent, +40 to strength spell on you!

That's why you need a level-based system, instead of that POS Spellcraft system - then you can set caps to enhancements based on level, like there are at non-epic.

(of course, said buff could be dispelled, but your foe generally has to know you have such a spell on you to do so)

Why? At that level, I'm sure every spellcaster would open with a disjunction just to get rid of the inevitable buffs the party members/NPCs will have. At least, if they were smart, they would.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Seems a little... artificial to me (i.e., a rule specifically put in place to limit the PCs).

It is. But if you want an excuse...the strain placed upon the body/mind/soul by wielding powerful artifacts (epic items) is so debilitating that only four can be used at any one time. Anymore would crush the psyche of an individual.

I'd prefer to do it more organically (through the limits of the wealth system) if possible, but... it may not be.

Its not possible, also remember that the wealth limits are themselves arbitrary figures.

I recently devised a new wealth system whereby it follows a clear progression and gives a flatter wealth curve, but you still end up with 12 million at 40th level.

I think fixing the pricing formulas for bonuses will help a lot, and I'll be working on that (I just came up with the idea last night). I'd like to make it so +6 and up applies to ALL weapons and armor, not just epic - IMO, a PC shouldn't be able to have a +10 market value weapon AND a +10 market value armor at 20th level. They shouldn't be able to afford anything greater than market value equal to their level (i.e., a 14th level PC shouldn't have more than +4 market value armor and +4 weapon, since the CL for +5 weapons is 15th).

Yeah, I found that out last night, crunching numbers in Excel.

Thats why I just skip the issue of wealth altogether and get straight to the heart of the matter - game balance.

Fair enough.. but I like the idea of the 1E artifacts, where they had drawbacks and minor and major powers, instead of just a laundry list of beneficial powers like the d20 artifacts.

I'll be detailing drawbacks in Grimoire. Although to be honest they are nothing more than item based Divine Handicaps...in terms of the mechanic.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Kerrick mate!

I thought it was 1/2? If it *is* 1/3 (and perhaps it should be), that would make my job sooo much easier.

Actually its 1/4 max per item...just like the D&D rules themselves.

 

[Upper_Krust]

HI Ltheb matey!

Also, I don't know how much U_K is going to touch on Epic Spellcasting in Grimoire, since Epic level buff spells become more common, and problematic, the higher level you get.

Didn't take that Belt of Hecatonchieres' Strength as one of your artifacts? Not a problem! The wizard will just cast a persistent, or permanent, +40 to strength spell on you!
(of course, said buff could be dispelled, but your foe generally has to know you have such a spell on you to do so)

Don't worry, I'll fix the problem with epic spell buffing in Grimoire.

 

[Kerrick]

Thats why I just skip the issue of wealth altogether and get straight to the heart of the matter - game balance.

Yeah, might be the way to go. I'm still going to play around with it a bit and see if I can figure something out.

Actually its 1/4 max per item...just like the D&D rules themselves.

1/4?? Whoa... that'll change things quite a bit. Where does it say this, anyway? I've never been able to find this particular piece of lore.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Kerrick dude!

Yeah, might be the way to go. I'm still going to play around with it a bit and see if I can figure something out.

Okay, let me know what you uncover.

1/4?? Whoa... that'll change things quite a bit. Where does it say this, anyway? I've never been able to find this particular piece of lore.

Do you mean where in the core rules or where in Ascension? I think it also says it in te Epic Level Handbook.

Page 23 of the ELH.

 

[poilbrun]

It is also in the DMG, in the chapter about creating characters about first level. I can't check page numbers right now since I'm at work, but I wondered about this last week end and that's where I found this ruling.

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

It is also in the DMG, in the chapter about creating characters about first level. I can't check page numbers right now since I'm at work, but I wondered about this last week end and that's where I found this ruling.

Alas, but my 3.5 DMG is missing (Its ok, I like the tables in the back of the 3.0 DMG more), else I'd give you the page numbers. I think its one of those rules everyone misses, like the one in the psionics handbook about not being able to spend more Powerpoints in one turn than your manifester level.

 

[paradox42]

It is also in the DMG, in the chapter about creating characters about first level. I can't check page numbers right now since I'm at work, but I wondered about this last week end and that's where I found this ruling.

Alas, but my 3.5 DMG is missing (Its ok, I like the tables in the back of the 3.0 DMG more), else I'd give you the page numbers. I think its one of those rules everyone misses, like the one in the psionics handbook about not being able to spend more Powerpoints in one turn than your manifester level.

The DMG page in 3.5 is 199, specifically the section on "Magic Items as Gear." The exact wording (it's the first whole paragraph in that section) actually just presents it as a suggestion for controlling character gear imbalance, not as a rule or mandate. In my own games I've usually done a soft limit of 1/2 the character wealth, but usually the player doesn't even try for that much- they want too many items to try throwing it all into one big helper. This is probably at least partly because I typically use random treasure in my games, due to having made a program to generate it years ago, and therefore the PC is unlikely to find immediately useful items in the very first treasure pile he/she/it comes across. Thus, the starting gear should ideally be "built to last" as it were.

Oddly, though, players in my games have shied away from using charged items or consumables like potions and scrolls, even though they find potential replacements in treasure piles frequently (historically, they typically sell the ones they find in short order upon getting to a market of sufficient size). Players have actually had arguments with the "treasure guy" (one player usually tracks party treasure in an Excel spreadsheet made for the purpose) about how keeping the healing potions was a good idea. If this is a common thing in other peoples' games, I wonder if the artifact rules shouldn't take this into account somehow?

AFAIK the psionics rule is that you don't get to spend more on a single manifestation than your manifester level, not specifically within one round. Characters with access to powers like Schism and powers that can manifest as Swift actions, can and do exceed their manifester level in powers used in a single round. It's essential to allowing a psionic PC to compete with spellcasters using Quickened spells and "swift spells" with a normal casting time of 1 Swift action.