Imp Grapple ? (Can Natural attack sub for Imp Unarmed?)

[ARandomGod]

Improved Grapple has the prereq's of Dex 13+ and Improved Unarmed Attack (IUA)

What about characters/races that already have a natural attack? They already have all the benifits that they could potentially get from IUA... well everything I can see other than potentially being able to take Imp. Grapple.

Are there any rules to cover this? Or would it be house rules to say that a natural attack can substitute for IUA when considering the Imp Grapple feat?

 

[Bront]

I believe that you only need IUA if you are humanoid.

 

[ARandomGod]

I believe that you only need IUA if you are humanoid.

Some humanoids have natural attacks..

humanoids. It's the oid that makes a difference. ^_^

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Improved Unarmed Strike and Natural Attacks are entirely different things.

If you want to learn Judo (Improved Grapple), you need to start out with Karate (IUS).

 

[The Quijotic Moose]

Appeal to Surreal Canon

But did you see the episode of The New Munsters when Herman tried to take a martial arts class?

He had a natural attack (flesh golems have a slam attack), but with no martial arts training (i.e. no IUS) he managed to pin the teacher without getting hurt (i.e. improved grapple)

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

He had a natural attack (flesh golems have a slam attack), but with no martial arts training (i.e. no IUS) he managed to pin the teacher without getting hurt (i.e. improved grapple)

1. The New Munsters? For shame!! For shame! There is only one true The Munsters. All others are just pale imitations!

2. Not getting hurt? Bah - he's just got a ginormous strength bonus! Heck, a stock flesh golem's got a +15 grapple check, more than enough to take on most humanoids!

 

[Infiniti2000]

Don't forget the DR. The teacher probably wasn't expecting that.

 

[ARandomGod]

Improved Unarmed Strike and Natural Attacks are entirely different things.

If you want to learn Judo (Improved Grapple), you need to start out with Karate (IUS).

It's true. I suppose I should petetion for a new houseruled feat called Natural Grapple.
^_^
Same as improved grapple but you have to have a natural attack instead of improved unarmed attack.

I mean, it's not like things without improved unarmed don't get grapple, it happens all the time.

There are other differences between improved unarmed and natural attacks... apparently natural attacks do not by RAW get multiple attacks for a high BAB. And, of course, feats applying to natural attacks don't really intermix with unarmed strikes.

Personally I think that's just a little messy. But whatever. Still, I was hoping there was something in RAW to cover the situation, without having to make something up.

 

[Thanee]

Well, some creatures can substitute natural abilities for feat prerequisites, like the centaur with the mounted combat feats, but in this case, I'd also be inclined to say, that you still need the Improved Unarmed Strike feat.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I mean, it's not like things without improved unarmed don't get grapple, it happens all the time.

The reason, I think, that they don't have it is that they generally have they Improved Grab special quality. This allows them to start free grapples every time they hit with a particular attack, as well as do damage equal to that attack in place of unarmed strike damage in a grapple. Furthermore, many have fairly sizeable bonuses on grapple checks, either through size or through racial bonuses.

The problem with grappling, in general, is that if you aren't specifically built as a grappling monster yourself (I'm looking at you, grapple-focused monk!), you're going to lose. Even most high-level fighters are going to have problems grappling with things like giants or dire animals, because their strength bonuses are largely equivalent, but the monsters have gigantic size bonuses.