Incarnum - grappler Monk(!) questions

[Wavestone]

I have Magic of Incarnum (MoI), but a few things are still unclear - hopefully someone can answer.

1. Bonus Essentia feat - if your character already have the feat Shape Soulmeld, you should get 2 essentia from this, right? Even if you have no other meldshaping abilities?

2. Open Least Chakra - Do this actually give one chakra bind, and not only just access to a chakra when you already have a bind (from a meldshaping class) ? Specifically, if I have a meld solely from Shape Soulmeld, could I use this feat to be able to bind it?

3. Mauling Gauntlets - does the bonus on strength checks from this meld apply to grapple checks? Breaking down doors and bull rushes are mentioned in the text, but grapple?

I'm asking, because I got a cool idea for an Incarnum-flavored monk (or fighter)..
MIght as well post the idea, to see if there's another catch..

Wavestones Incarnum-monk
Assuming Human, pure Monk:
abilities - high strength and constitution
1 - Improved Unarmed Strike (B), Stunning Fist (B), Improved Grapple, Shape Soulmeld (Mauling Gauntlets)
2 - Combat Reflexes (B)
3 - Bonus Essentia (2 points)
6 - Improved Trip (B), Open least chakra (Hands)

At this point, you should be able to put those 2 essentia into the meld, and bind it to the hands, giving you +6 to str checks, and +6 to unarmed damage. Assuming a 16 Str, and no other bonuses:
- Grapple check (+4 BAB, +3 Str, +6 meld, +4 imp grapple) +17.
- Unarmed +7 (+4 BAB, +3 Str) 1d8+9 (+3 Str, +6 meld).

Sounds pretty decent to me, at least for Monk6.. Just grapple.. and squeeze!

Of course it could be expanded with appropriate prestige classes, etc.. I just want to know if this is ok by the rules, or if I've missed something.

-Wavestone

 

[Pyrex]

IDHMBIFOM, but I think Shape Soulmeld is an [Incarnum] feat so you have to have the [Incarnum] subtype to take it. Right?

But you can easily work around that by taking the Incarnum-touched-Human race from MoI instead of stock-Human.

 

[atom crash]

IDHMBIFOM, but I think Shape Soulmeld is an [Incarnum] feat so you have to have the [Incarnum] subtype to take it. Right?

I too was assuming that you needed an essentia pool (and therefore had the [Incarnum] subtype) in order to take an Incarnum feat, much like you have to have a power point reserve in order to qualify for Psionic feats, but now that I'm looking through the book I'll be da-, er, darned if I can't find it explicity mentioned as such.

However, both Shape Soulmeld and Bonus Essentia are general feats, not Incarnum feats.

 

[ohGr]

1. Bonus Essentia feat - if your character already have the feat Shape Soulmeld, you should get 2 essentia from this, right? Even if you have no other meldshaping abilities?

I would say yes. Bonus Essentia grants you 2 essentia "if you are capable of shaping soulmelds;" Shape Soulmeld gives you "the ability to shape a single soulmeld." Seems pretty cut and dried to me.

2. Open Least Chakra - Do this actually give one chakra bind, and not only just access to a chakra when you already have a bind (from a meldshaping class) ? Specifically, if I have a meld solely from Shape Soulmeld, could I use this feat to be able to bind it?

This one's less clear, but that's certainly the way i interpret it.

3. Mauling Gauntlets - does the bonus on strength checks from this meld apply to grapple checks? Breaking down doors and bull rushes are mentioned in the text, but grapple?

Unfortunately, i don't believe so. The grapple check is never specifically called out as a Strength check, just a Strength-based check. (Verily, it's called a grapple check and not a Strength check for a reason.) If you want to venture into house-rule territory, i personally wouldn't have a problem with it adding to grapple checks, and a lenient DM may agree. But by the RAW as i read it, no.

Wavestones Incarnum-monk
Assuming Human, pure Monk:
abilities - high strength and constitution
1 - Improved Unarmed Strike (B), Stunning Fist (B), Improved Grapple, Shape Soulmeld (Mauling Gauntlets)
2 - Combat Reflexes (B)
3 - Bonus Essentia (2 points)
6 - Improved Trip (B), Open least chakra (Hands).

Looks good, but one problem: Bonus Essentia requires a character level of 6th; you can't take it at 3rd level. In place, maybe you could take one of the various Incarnum feats to gain a point of essentia. Also, i would look into azurin instead of human if you don't plan on multiclassing into another base class; you'll give up the bonus skill points in favour of a point of essentia.

 

[Wavestone]

Unfortunately, i don't believe so. The grapple check is never specifically called out as a Strength check, just a Strength-based check. (Verily, it's called a grapple check and not a Strength check for a reason.) If you want to venture into house-rule territory, i personally wouldn't have a problem with it adding to grapple checks, and a lenient DM may agree. But by the RAW as i read it, no.


Looks good, but one problem: Bonus Essentia requires a character level of 6th; you can't take it at 3rd level. In place, maybe you could take one of the various Incarnum feats to gain a point of essentia. Also, i would look into azurin instead of human if you don't plan on multiclassing into another base class; you'll give up the bonus skill points in favour of a point of essentia.

Thanks for the answer. I forgot about the level requirement for Bonus Essentia.. Azurin monk with an incarnum feat should do well instead..

Regarding the grapple issue - that deflates much of the point with this build.. sure, +6 unarmed damage is nice, but for the price of 3 feats and restricted race selection..?

Might be useful to take power attack + improved bull rush then.. But that would be a very narrow build. Sure, he'd bull rush like no other, but how often do bull rushing come into play?

A comment - shape soulmeld + incarnum feats (or bonus essentia) seems a nice way to give a standard character a taste of incarnum without jumping into the whole thing.. it can be a bit overwhelming..

-Wavestone

 

[Drowbane]

It appears that your questions have already been answered... thus I will just make a few comments.

I too have been eyeing Shape Soulmeld, Improved Soulmeld Capacity, etc. We're about to start a new Eberron Campaign starting at lvl 5... and I was thinking of a fighter-type who has Shape "Mantle of the Silver Flame"

Fighter (barbarian?) + Mantle of Flame is just purdy.

 

[ohGr]

Regarding the grapple issue - that deflates much of the point with this build.. sure, +6 unarmed damage is nice, but for the price of 3 feats and restricted race selection..?

Yeah, it does kind of neuter the idea, doesn't it? I would focus, instead, on tripping. You're already getting Improved Trip for free at 6th level and a trip check is a Strength check, so the mauling gauntlets would apply. Besides, IMHO, tripping is a more viable tactic than grappling, anyway.

(Also, with azurin + an Incarnum feat + Bonus Essentia you'll have 4 points of essentia, netting you an eventual bonus of +10.)

 

[Wavestone]

Good point ohGr, about the tripping.. with this soulmeld and ImpTrip, you should regularly win the opposed str check. ANd then dealing some decent damage on the prone opponent with an unramed strike. The problem would then be to get some decent attack bonus.

Regarding the essentia.. 4 points is nice, but with only one soulmeld, you'd have to be 18th level to be able to apply all of it.. or spend another feat on Expanded Soulmeld Capacity. I think the best bet would be to keep the feat expenditures more or less at the 3 feats needed (shape soulmeld, Bonus Essentia/incarnum feat, and Open Least Chakra), and use other feats to shore up you other abilities.

Nevertheless, it is a really nice bonus from the soulmeld.. The build works best if you can start at 6th level or close, I think. At lower levels, the feat choices doesn't do too much for you, but at level 6, and the chakra bind - bam! +6 unarmed damage.


Drowbane.. Yes, it seems that you can expand on an ordinary class by taking Shape soulmeld and relevant feats - you only gets one gimmick, but it might dovetail well with your main schtick. Your idea was cool, and that soulmeld is really good for someone who tanks in melee.. Of course, your flame would be silvered.

The interesting thing about MoI is that it provides new mechanical stuff.. If you dont like what you read about soulmelds and incarnum being soulstuff, its easy to change the flavor of soulmelds to magical tattoos, ki powers, ectoplasm from the far realm, painting the names of blessed spirits to your body, using the Force, or whatever you like..

The second thing I like is that you can use small bits of it for all classes - you dont have to go meldshaper at all, as was the case with my monk idea..

Thanks for your posts..
-Wavestone

 

[dedicated]

The Girallon Arms soulmeld gives a bonus to grapple

 

[MerricB]

IDHMBIFOM, but I think Shape Soulmeld is an [Incarnum] feat so you have to have the [Incarnum] subtype to take it. Right?

No. Incarnum feats are so-named because you can invest essentia in them. (Most grant essentia as well).

Cheers!