Initiative options?

[DND_Reborn]

Hi all,

I was thinking about Initiative a lot lately. Does anyone have any variant so it isn't just "I go, you go, I go, you go"?

Even rolling each round, it is still basically always I get a turn then you and alternates. My group is looking for something more dynamic and purposeful.

Any thoughts?

 

[iserith]

My thoughts on initiative is that there actually isn't a whole lot of fun to be wrung out of that process. The fun part is what follows. So to the extent you can get initiative done faster, so much the better, and I find that the default method works just fine in that regard. The main thing for DMs to remember is that like monsters all go on the same initiative count. When DMs don't do that, the whole combat slows down in my experience.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

It might take a little bit of work, but you could adapt the method from White Wolf's Street Fighter engine.

Basically, you would roll initiative as normal, but then the character with the lowest initiative goes first. At any point in their turn, anyone with a higher initiative can interrupt them; and unless they are interrupted by someone with an even higher initiative, their entire turn resolves, and then it goes back to the slower character.

As an example, consider a combat between a paladin (initiative 7), a wizard (initiative 15), and a monk (initiative 20):

First, the paladin moves toward the wizard, and gets ready to smite. The wizard interrupts the paladin, by backing away and casting a spell. Unless the monk interrupts the wizard (such as by running forward and stunning them), the wizard's spell resolves, and then it goes back to what the paladin was doing. Most likely, the wizard is out of range of the paladin, so they would end up swinging at nothing and wasting their action. After the paladin and wizard have gone, initiative moves to the slowest remaining character, which would just be the monk. Nobody is faster than the monk, so nobody gets a chance to interrupt them.

 

[200orcs]

What problem are you trying to solve?

Dynamic implies changing, but based on what? What's happening? Not always the same order?

Purposeful...that's too vague. The purpose being what?

If you elaborate, we can probably give you better answers.

 

[RangerWickett]

It might take a little bit of work, but you could adapt the method from White Wolf's Street Fighter engine.

Basically, you would roll initiative as normal, but then the character with the lowest initiative goes first. At any point in their turn, anyone with a higher initiative can interrupt them; and unless they are interrupted by someone with an even higher initiative, their entire turn resolves, and then it goes back to the slower character.

As an example, consider a combat between a paladin (initiative 7), a wizard (initiative 15), and a monk (initiative 20):

First, the paladin moves toward the wizard, and gets ready to smite. The wizard interrupts the paladin, by backing away and casting a spell. Unless the monk interrupts the wizard (such as by running forward and stunning them), the wizard's spell resolves, and then it goes back to what the paladin was doing. Most likely, the wizard is out of range of the paladin, so they would end up swinging at nothing and wasting their action. After the paladin and wizard have gone, initiative moves to the slowest remaining character, which would just be the monk. Nobody is faster than the monk, so nobody gets a chance to interrupt them.

That's nifty. Have you actually tried it out with groups of 4 PCs and 4+ monsters? I imagine there'd be a lot of short-distance dodging, which would slow the game down unless you changed HP and such.

 

[Shiroiken]

The only way to really make initiative meaningful will make it more complicated, which may not be worth the trade off. My suggestion would be to have everyone declare their action at the start of each round (in basic terms, such as Attack, Cast a Spell, Dodge, etc.), then roll initiative, resolving each turn in initiative order. Characters can move however they want, and take bonus actions as they see fit, but their Action must be completed if possible (may be aborted if impossible). Characters get 1 reaction each round, regardless of where they are in the turn order, making it possible for 2 reactions between turns. Spell duration becomes tricky, and can either be set to the end of the current or next round (next round makes spells slightly better with high initiative, allowing longer effects, current round makes spells worse with low initiative). An alternate that might be harder, but more accurate, would be to list the initiative number the effect should end on (a spell that ends after the target's next turn would end after the target's current initaitive count, for example).

It might take a little bit of work, but you could adapt the method from White Wolf's Street Fighter engine.

Basically, you would roll initiative as normal, but then the character with the lowest initiative goes first. At any point in their turn, anyone with a higher initiative can interrupt them; and unless they are interrupted by someone with an even higher initiative, their entire turn resolves, and then it goes back to the slower character.

Interesting. It's similar to AEG's system for Legend of the Five Rings (at least the earlier editions). Each round everyone rolls initiative, but the lowest declares their action intent first. Later characters can adapt to it by choosing a different action. After the highest declares, they resolve their action first, followed by the next highest, etc.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Let me see if I can explain it better then. In other games, such as Shadowrun, you go first but then get more actions later on at lower initiatives. So there seems to be more purpose to Initiative, if you were fast enough you could go twice before your opponent could even act once. In D&D, whether you roll once or re-roll, it really doesn't seem to make a difference. Sure, you go first, but after than because it is turn-based it is always you-them-you-them. Rolling each round changes it a little, but in the long run it doesn't actually. The sequence might be you-them-you-them-them-you-them-you-you-them... in the end, it sort of "averages" out so to speak. The DM can basically say "Ok, in this encounter they were waiting for you and will act, then you can go" or maybe "You are ready before them, so you guys go first."

I guess you could just as easily flip a coin to see who goes first and then alternate turns because that is what it breaks down to. One player made a character with a ridiculous +12 to Initiative. So, they went first most of the time and put a lot of resources into going first, only to realize after that VERY first action, it didn't matter. I think re-rolling each time slows things down too much and doesn't really add much to the game. We are looking for a way to speed things up and make spending resources for such things as high Initiative modifiers to be worth it.

I feel like I am rambling at this point. Sorry if it isn't any clearer.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

That's nifty. Have you actually tried it out with groups of 4 PCs and 4+ monsters? I imagine there'd be a lot of short-distance dodging, which would slow the game down unless you changed HP and such.

I've never tried it, but I imagine you're right. It's a better fit for a system where initiative and movement are your primary form of defense, rather than AC and Hit Points. (Street Fighter doesn't use an attack roll; you automatically hit, as long as they're in range.)

It would also make Dexterity even more valuable than it already is, which is the last thing I'd want for D&D.

 

[iserith]

Let me see if I can explain it better then. In other games, such as Shadowrun, you go first but then get more actions later on at lower initiatives. So there seems to be more purpose to Initiative, if you were fast enough you could go twice before your opponent could even act once. In D&D, whether you roll once or re-roll, it really doesn't seem to make a difference. Sure, you go first, but after than because it is turn-based it is always you-them-you-them. Rolling each round changes it a little, but in the long run it doesn't actually. The sequence might be you-them-you-them-them-you-them-you-you-them... in the end, it sort of "averages" out so to speak. The DM can basically say "Ok, in this encounter they were waiting for you and will act, then you can go" or maybe "You are ready before them, so you guys go first."

In D&D 5e doing stuff later in the round is usually a factor of the Ready action or using a reaction to do something.

I guess you could just as easily flip a coin to see who goes first and then alternate turns because that is what it breaks down to. One player made a character with a ridiculous +12 to Initiative. So, they went first most of the time and put a lot of resources into going first, only to realize after that VERY first action, it didn't matter. I think re-rolling each time slows things down too much and doesn't really add much to the game. We are looking for a way to speed things up and make spending resources for such things as high Initiative modifiers to be worth it.

A high initiative is especially useful if you have class features that rely on you going first. It's also good in situations in which you are surprised since you'll be able to take reactions faster and reduce the chance that the monster goes twice before you get to go once (and vice versa, it's good when you get to go twice before the monster goes due to high initiative). Otherwise, there's not that big a benefit outside of very particular situations in my opinion. I almost never devote much of my character builds to initiative.

As I mentioned above, there's just not that much fun to wring out of initiative in this game and the action economy is simple by design. It seems like messing with it would be a lot of work for very little return on investment. Perhaps focusing on making all other aspects of the game more fun (for example, increasing the number of meaningful choices the players make in all challenges) would be a more worthwhile endeavor.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Perhaps focusing on making all other aspects of the game more fun (for example, increasing the number of meaningful choices the players make in all challenges) would be a more worthwhile endeavor.

We understand going first for certain features is what makes them work, but otherwise it seems like a pointless mechanic. So, I agree, which is why I'll probably just suggest we get rid of initiative altogether. The game seems likely to run just as well because it is so simple in actions.

But, first I'll wait to see if anyone else has other ideas...