Input for starting a Star Wars Saga Edition game?

[Quickleaf]

It should be noted that the skill system is broken when you start using skills as attack rolls (Force Powers, mostly). You need to do something to fix the wonky maths there.

Yeah I'm torn about how to handle it; the main 2 solutions I've seen on the net are (1) ban or tweak Skill Focus (Use the Force), or (2) adopt a skill attack modifier rule.

One idea I have would actually tie into the story/setting I'm working on, and that would be for everything to be kept RAW, but Skill Focus (Use the Force) means your character is hyperaware of disturbances in the Force, weakened in dark side sites, and susceptible to telepathic bombardment by a certain villain.

Also, I'd advise some house ruling (I'd use healing surges) if you run a combat-heavy game, because healing in SW is a pain - it's too difficult given the genre and how much damage you take in combat.

I never would have realized that without playing, so thanks for the heads up! What house rule do you use?

 

[MerricB]

Yeah I'm torn about how to handle it; the main 2 solutions I've seen on the net are (1) ban or tweak Skill Focus (Use the Force), or (2) adopt a skill attack modifier rule.

I'd make it into a separate attack roll - Base Attack + CHA* modifier vs appropriate defense, with possession of Skill Focus (Use the Force) giving a +1 modifier to hit.

(*or whatever ability score governs Use the Force. I can't remember off-hand).

I never would have realized that without playing, so thanks for the heads up! What house rule do you use?

We didn't - despite playing through all of the Dawn of Defiance campaign (levels 1-20), but if I were playing today, I'd adopt the following:

* Each character has 8+Con modifier healing surges. (A surge regains 1/4 of their hp).
* A character may use his "second wind" as a swift action once per combat to regain HP equal to a surge. (effects that allow more second winds/day apply instead to each combat)
* Between encounters, a character may rest and spend as many surges as they like.
* After an extended rest, the character regains all healing surges
* A character brought to 0 hp or below loses all healing surges and cannot regain them until restored to full HP through medical attention.

That last I'd alter to fit circumstances (and see how it goes in play). The basic idea is that in Star Wars *very* few hits are actual hits. And there are precious few glancing hits as well. So using healing surges to represent the character's luck/fatigue/momentum seems to work well. And saying that on an 'actual' hit (KO) that all surges disappear also seems to fit the genre.

Cheers!

 

[Umbran]

It should be noted that the skill system is broken when you start using skills as attack rolls (Force Powers, mostly). You need to do something to fix the wonky maths there.

We haven't noticed that much trouble there, honestly. I'm not sure where the problem comes from.

Defenses go at +1/level
A full BAB is +1/level
So, a full BAB character keeps up with defenses.

Skills got at +1/2 levels.
So, without the skill and skill focus, a Force user will eventually fall well behind defenses.

Now, a young character could stack Skill Focus in early, and be pretty darned impressive for bit, but that will even out with time. You can fix that by giving a minimum level for Skill Focus, if you really wanted to.

Me? I'm running a character who is trying to play a Jedi with a Charisma of 10. If I didn't have access to Skill Focus, I might as well just give up on anything that directly affects other people.

 

[Quickleaf]

We haven't noticed that much trouble there, honestly. I'm not sure where the problem comes from.

The problem appears to come from optimized Jedi characters, from what I've gathered.

Now, a young character could stack Skill Focus in early, and be pretty darned impressive for bit, but that will even out with time. You can fix that by giving a minimum level for Skill Focus, if you really wanted to.

Hmm, that's another solution, maybe requiring 10th level would work.

Me? I'm running a character who is trying to play a Jedi with a Charisma of 10. If I didn't have access to Skill Focus, I might as well just give up on anything that directly affects other people.

Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but if your 1st level Jedi is trained in Use the Force with Charisma 10 then your skill check is +5; average defenses at 1st level are between 12 and 14, so you should be hitting with force attacks 60%-70% of the time. Not ideal, but certainly not requiring Skill Focus to be functional! If your Jedi had Skill Focus, this would jump to 85%-95% which is definitely past the sweet spot (~75% success rate).

Same scenario at 10th level, you've got +10 Use the Force (trained, Charisma 10, no skill focus) vs. average defenses of 21 - 23. Now you've got a 40%-50% chance to hit. If we say you take Skill Focus at 10th level (using the house rule you suggested), that jumps to 65%-75% chance to hit which seems like just below the sweet spot.

 

[Quickleaf]

I've done some more brainstorming about the main villain for our upcoming game/campaign: Uvam-Oror. He's an adult (300-400 years old) member of the long-lived innately-telepathic Draethos species who joins the Mandalorians after exile from his home planet.

Uvam-Oror is greatly influenced by the works of Demagol (as well as his apprentice Pulsiphor), and to a lesser extent Sith alchemy. Demagol theorized there was a biological root to a Jedi’s power, not mysticism, while his apprentice and sometimes rival Pulsiphor theorized ancient artifacts bestowed power to Jedi. Based on their research, Uvam-Oror developed a radical theory: that Force-use was innate to all creatures of the galaxy but that some kind of biological inhibitor prevented most species from accessing this connection.

So he's sort of the ultimate Star Wars conspiracy theorist. His driving motive is understanding who/what caused this "biological inhibitor" and finding a way to undo it thru his foul experiments. He's able to awaken Force sensitivity in himself, though it's unclear whether that's because of his innate telepathic ability as a Draethos or his techniques have proven successful.

During the first adventure the PCs are going to pursue an old hyperspace navigational beacon for data on a hidden planet/asteroid (possibly Port Nadir). I'm thinking Uvam-Oror is seeking a way to use hyperspace beacons to boost his telepathy across the galaxy...

Not sure about his specific abilities or the extent of his power within the scattered Mandalorians yet. Anyhow, that's what I've got so far!

 

[Umbran]

Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but if your 1st level Jedi is trained in Use the Force with Charisma 10 then your skill check is +5; average defenses at 1st level are between 12 and 14, so you should be hitting with force attacks 60%-70% of the time.

I'm not sure I agree with your assessment of the average defense at 1st level. Between starting stats, racial modifiers, and class modifiers, I'd expect the typical defense to be a bit higher than that.

 

[Quickleaf]

I'm not sure I agree with your assessment of the average defense at 1st level. Between starting stats, racial modifiers, and class modifiers, I'd expect the typical defense to be a bit higher than that.

Sure it's not exact, but it's in the ball park isn't it?

Anyhow, it's not something I wanted to belabor. On a different note, I just put together a Fiasco-style list of relationships for Star Wars (my recent group sometimes need a little prompting to come up with ways their characters connect to each other...character building in a vacuum).

 

[Fifth Element]

What sort of map do you use for starship battles?

A 4-dimensional one. It's awesome.

 

[Quickleaf]

A 4-dimensional one. It's awesome.

Picture or it didn't happen

 

[MerricB]

I'm not sure I agree with your assessment of the average defense at 1st level. Between starting stats, racial modifiers, and class modifiers, I'd expect the typical defense to be a bit higher than that.

It isn't. And, to make things worse, Force Users get to attack Will a lot of the time, which is really bad for most characters. Indeed, during Dawn of Defiance my noble was attacked vs Will - his best save - and the Dark Jedi still had a 60-70% chance of success.

At first level, your average Wookie Soldier will have a Will save of 10. The Dark Jedi is wandering around with a +12 to that check (trained, skill focus, 14 Cha). The Dark Jedi picks up the Wookie using Move Object, hurling it another character - a Noble with a Reflex defense of 12. Both characters take 2d6 damage - and couldn't avoid it unless the Dark Jedi rolled less than 3 (in which case he failed the basic check).

By tenth level, the Wookie has managed to get his Will save up to 19, and the Dark Jedi has a +17 to his check. Still favours the Dark Jedi.

By twentieth level, the Wookie is at Will of 29, and he Dark Jedi is at +22. Still favours the Dark Jedi! (Actually, using skill bonuses, the Dark Jedi may well be at +24...)

Ultimately, the fact that the skill system and attack/defense systems are built on utterly different scales undermines the Use the Force skill; and why I would strongly recommend using a variant of the 4E attack system for the Use the Force attack powers.

The maths is still problematic, but it's much easier to judge than the basic version.

Note also that a basic jedi can use these powers:
* Force Slam (vs Fort)
* Force Grip (vs Will)
* Move Object (vs Ref)

It's not very hard at all to target the weak defense of a character - and it'll be weak.