D&D 5E Is a Half-Caster -but still Magical- Cleric too different?

[steeldragons]

So, I'm re-re-rewriting my World of Orea RPG for my World of Orea campaign setting.

(Yes, I'm the Bob's Burgers of game/setting design)

The fighters are the fighters. The mages are the mages [wizards/"magic-users"]. The Thieves are the thieves/rogues, "Supports through Skill." The Clerics, insofar as my vision of what the "default Priest category" class is supposed to be, is the general "Support" class. The "hold your own -or better- in a fight and hold your own -or better- when dealing with magic/supernatural threats."

With that in mind, and a little homage/harkening back to Basic's clerics not getting spells until 2nd level, would it be...disruptive, I guess, to people's expectations or immersion to hold off "Spellcasting/Divine Magic" until, say 3rd level.

The idea is making "Channel Divinity" the first level/initial power. Limited effects - turn undead, detect evil, etc... Limited uses. But still "magical powers" to kind of build up your "divine energy cred", prove your devotion, so to speak. Then, the spells come in at 3rd level (as if you were a 1st level cleric, btb) and progress as expected.

So, your "core big four" class defaults are the fighter being the "full on weapons" guy. The mage being the "full on magic guy." The cleric being the "part weapons, part magic guy" [with variations on those parts depending on the focus of the deity/order in question] and the thief stays the "full on skills," or "part weapons, part skills" depending on how you like your rogues.

Is that too big a paradigm change from D&D's (and derivatives) Cleric = "full caster [progession] of divine magic" or do people think it could work? Not just the mechanics, I mean. That's obviously easy and doable. But would the flavor be off-putting? Is not being able to cast spells at 1st level somehow going to "ruin" the cleric?

 

[discosoc]

I think your classification of clerics as being "part weapons, part magic" doesn't really make much sense when your delaying the magic part until 3rd level. Even more strange is how you're removing access to healing in the very levels that it makes the most difference. If it fits your setting, then great. I just can't imagine a player actually wanting to roll a cleric that's been arbitrarily gimped compared to the other options.

 

[TwoSix]

Is that too big a paradigm change from D&D's (and derivatives) Cleric = "full caster [progession] of divine magic" or do people think it could work? Not just the mechanics, I mean. That's obviously easy and doable. But would the flavor be off-putting? Is not being able to cast spells at 1st level somehow going to "ruin" the cleric?

Certainly doesn't bother me any, but I've been on record before as thinking Cleric concepts would fit better on a warlock chassis, and it's not much of a stretch between warlock casting and generic half-casting.

 

[steeldragons]

I think your classification of clerics as being "part weapons, part magic" doesn't really make much sense when your delaying the magic part until 3rd level. Even more strange is how you're removing access to healing in the very levels that it makes the most difference. If it fits your setting, then great. I just can't imagine a player actually wanting to roll a cleric that's been arbitrarily gimped compared to the other options.

Well, I'm not taking the "magic" out, I'm delaying the "spellcasting" until 3rd level. 1st and 2nd they'd be able to channel some magical effects...So there's still still "magic" about the cleric at first and second levels. To your point taken about healing, some form of generic/low-level "healing" would be an option for that channeling.

Probably something like "Level + Wis. mod times per day ["long rest," per 5e. Though this isn't for 5e so...]" with Turn Undead; something akin to the 5e paladin's Divine Sense to metaphsyically sniff out extraplanar beings, undead, serious/powerful evil, etc...; and a low-grade healing being their orignal options.

Deity-specific "Domain powers" come in at 3rd [as would Cleric spellcasting] and later levels so you have more "Channeling" power/options as you gain levels.

The spellcasting would just, I guess, become supplemental/specific situations that befit the deity's areas of influence and cleric "classics" (like Command or Spiritual Weapon, more powerful abjurations and restorative magics)

 

[discosoc]

Well, I'm not taking the "magic" out, I'm delaying the "spellcasting" until 3rd level. 1st and 2nd they'd be able to channel some magical effects...So there's still still "magic" about the cleric at first and second levels. To your point taken about healing, some form of generic/low-level "healing" would be an option for that channeling.

Probably something like "Level + Wis. mod times per day ["long rest," per 5e. Though this isn't for 5e so...]" with Turn Undead; something akin to the 5e paladin's Divine Sense to metaphsyically sniff out extraplanar beings, undead, serious/powerful evil, etc...; and a low-grade healing being their orignal options.

Deity-specific "Domain powers" come in at 3rd [as would Cleric spellcasting] and later levels so you have more "Channeling" power/options as you gain levels.

The spellcasting would just, I guess, become supplemental/specific situations that befit the deity's areas of influence and cleric "classics" (like Command or Spiritual Weapon, more powerful abjurations and restorative magics)

It still sounds like you're taking away something from the class for fluff reasons, but aren't giving anything meaningful back for mechanical balance. For the first 2 levels, the Cleric is going to be a crappy fighter with some situational channeling abilities. And even when they start accessing actual spells at 3rd level, the spells themselves are still going to be balanced as if they are intended for 1st level characters. Casting a Cure spell for 1d8+wis is pretty great when characters are running around with level 1 health, but that same spell being cast on level 4 characters with level 4 health is much less impressive. And since enhancing spell effects is based on the slot used to cast it, even the future scaling of cleric spells will continue to lag behind.

I'm all for your general idea. I just think you're underestimating the impact of delaying cleric spells like this.

 

[Ath-kethin]

Based on your vision for the cleric-type class, maybe working within the warlock chassis would work better to manage expectations? Essentially a pact with a benevolent entity instead of an uninterested/harmful one.

 

[steeldragons]

It is an intriguing idea...and not far from my initial premise...

Being a cleric -in "D&D" class terms- is, essentially, making a deal [pact] with your deity. Your devotion and undying service [born from whatever reason] and your devotion/faith is rewarded, so to speak, either directly (as higher level magics generally are viewed) or indirectly (channeling the basic goodness or positive energies of the divine, granted from some lesser celestial being/emissary of the deity, etc...) with magical ability.

It's worth some thought.

 

[TwoSix]

It is an intriguing idea...and not far from my initial premise...

Being a cleric -in "D&D" class terms- is, essentially, making a deal [pact] with your deity. Your devotion and undying service [born from whatever reason] and your devotion/faith is rewarded, so to speak, either directly (as higher level magics generally are viewed) or indirectly (channeling the basic goodness or positive energies of the divine, granted from some lesser celestial being/emissary of the deity, etc...) with magical ability.

It's worth some thought.

It also does a nice job of giving the "core 4" their own defined mechanical niche. Fighter gets Extra Attack, Rogue gets Sneak Attack, Cleric gets Short Rest casting, Wizard gets Long Rest casting.

 

[Lackhand]

Could you talk a little bit more about the differences between [MENTION=92511]steeldragons[/MENTION]' cleric and the PHB's paladin? After all, they're a divine half-caster with limited use low-level healing, delayed spellcasting pickup, etc.

 

[Ath-kethin]

Could you talk a little bit more about the differences between [MENTION=92511]steeldragons[/MENTION]' cleric and the PHB's paladin? After all, they're a divine half-caster with limited use low-level healing, delayed spellcasting pickup, etc.

I thought about that too, and steedragon hasn't really clarified. But I figure that if the paladin by itself would work, it would have been mentioned in the original post.