Is the current Doctor REALLY the 11th?

[GreyLord]

By my recollection, most of the horror in the old Doctor Who storylines was at a slight remove from the Doctor and his companions- people die in horrible ways, but companions and the Doctor get threatened, but rarely actually harmed. There are exceptions, of course, but almost all of the darkness flows towards the Doctor, and he turns it away.

The new Whos are darker. They do have an angrier side. They act in ways previous incarnations might not have.

But I wouldn't necessarily call that "Amaricanized"- I'd call that "modernization". I've seen the same increase in darkness in British, Australian, Russian and Hungarian Sci-Fi.

I can't speak for the Russian, Australian, or Hungarian stuff, I haven't seen it. The British stuff that is darker is because it's gotten more influences from Americans over the years. American TV shows got very popular for a while.

They have to do something to get audiences back to watching British TV.

However, other shows REMAIN very British without the Americanization of them.

There's darker in the American Sense, and Darker in the British sense. I'd say Who is Darker in the American Sense, Torchwood was even Darker, but much of it was with that British dark which many Americans wouldn't like (except the few geeky ones).

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I can't speak for the Russian, Australian, or Hungarian stuff, I haven't seen it. The British stuff that is darker is because it's gotten more influences from Americans over the years. American TV shows got very popular for a while.

You mean dark stuff like Friends, A-Team and Knight Rider?

I am not sure I can agree with this influence. Lots of American shows are and were not dark. I think it's a trend in the TV story-telling, for what ever reasons.

 

[Tonguez]

Both Blakes Seven and Sapphire and Steel were old school British dark sci-fi and not at all Americanized. Even Dangermouse had its darker edge (lol)

The vibe I get from the new Doctor is more in keeping with things like Ultimate Force and some of the Police/Detective dramas (not to mention Jekyll).

So I'm agreeing with Dannyalcatraz the new Doctor Who is 'modernized' and that might make it more accessible to a US audience to the extent that such modernization is a result of global homogenisation of perceptions.

 

[Umbran]

I can't speak for the Russian, Australian, or Hungarian stuff, I haven't seen it. The British stuff that is darker is because it's gotten more influences from Americans over the years.

Dude, TV programs (and all other entertainments) change with the people. Culture is not static. The new Who would be the same as the old if and only if the British people had remained unchanged since 1963.

I think to say that the change is only due to American influence is a bit insulting to the Brits. They are their own people, and they influence their media more than we do.

Have you watched both the British and American versions of Being Human? I think that example of what Americanization really does to a show stands strongly against your point.

 

[GreyLord]

You mean dark stuff like Friends, A-Team and Knight Rider?

I am not sure I can agree with this influence. Lots of American shows are and were not dark. I think it's a trend in the TV story-telling, for what ever reasons.

No, more like Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Angel, Deep Space 9 (fairly popular prior to Doctor Who in the UK), and Smallville. It has that type of darkness in Doctor Who. Fantasy/Sci-Fi tinged with horror and grotesque things.

Edit: To be more clear...I also can see it in Music.

For example...

Lady Gaga, and American Singer is someone that Americans and Brits both listen too.

Robbie Williams and Little Boots are those that most in the US have not even heard of, much less listen to.

However, Umbran, you may be right. I'm Old...at least in relation to many. You know what they say about old people...set in their ways, unchanging...etc. On your question about Being Human...I'm afraid I haven't seen the American version. I've only seen the British version...sorry...so I can't actually compare in that note.

I do think that there is a distinct difference between the British Edge, and Americanized. One actually appeals to Americans...the other side, the British side may be highly popular with the British...but most Americans won't even realize it exists (sort of like Robbie Williams).

Then again...as I said, I'm old and set in my ways so maybe I just am looking for things that set British apart...when in reality they've more melded with the American ideas over time than anything else. Plus, I'm currently living in the US and only way I know what's going on over there has been constant travel back and forth...so probably not the best to be bringing these things up anyways.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Iconically "American dark" typically has things like guns & casual violence (even for heroes). In some ways, it's almost cartoonish.

The "modern dark" typically has heroes that have personalities that are complexly nuanced. They may have done something in their past for which they ar seeking redemption. They are heroes with weaknesses and flaws.

They are not mutually exclusive.

But the Doc carries no gun. His violence is not casual, it's the last link in a causal chain initiated by the foes du jour.

Now, what HAS been Americanized:

1) the budget which then gets poured into an Americanized SFX suite. Nothing low-rent or gritty about the current visuals!

2) pacing. Earlier series typically had storylines stretching several episodes, a la classic British murder mystery shows. Now, most story arcs are 1 and done.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

Why do you watch the New Docto Who?

I watch it because it has the root feeling of the original series updated for our modern times.

The Movie tried to Americanize it the wrong way, in the way of network Fox TV.

It did it in way that made it lose everything that makes Dr. Who what it is.

The New Doctor Who has completely Americanized it (IMO, fan of the Old Doctor Who...so might explain some of my views) with more concentration on neat special effects, computer animation,

Like most who've responded I believe this is merely modern influence, not American influence. Even if I agree that the show (and other British shows) is influenced by American TV, a claim that seems reasonable, I view influence as good, but total Americanization bad. Not that I don't like American shows, but Doctor Who has its own identity that made the bad special effects of old worth watching past.

and violence (never saw the doctor with so much violence in the old ones as you do in the New ones. The new ones have more violence and a more touches of horror than an entire serial, or a few serials all put together did of the old Doctor).

One of the things that stands out about Dr. Who is that he quite often solves things without violence when American shows of the era would come out guns blazing. This is something I remember well from the old series. But now I'm watching back through old episodes and the violence really stands out. I think I focused on the fresh differences and ignored all the violence. Then again, I'm watching Hartnell and Troughton episodes now. I started as a kid with Pertwee, so maybe the violence subsided during his and Tom Baker's era.

Most of the new run has the "solving dangerous issues without violence" feel. I remember telling my wife that the new Who had captured that well. The current Matt Smith storyline is specifically meant to be more violent and I believe is leading to a morality story about the consequences of violence.

It's also gotten that American groove of putting a dark touch into the Sci-Fi with a little of horror, or just darkness (MUCH more dark than the Old Doctor Who). Not that this is necessarily a BAD thing, but I see the New Doctor Who as completely Americanized. I think that's why the American Audience has grown so much in relation to the New Doctor Who.

Watching the old series back and keeping in mind what the times were like I think you'll find much more darkness than you might think in the old series. It comes from a completely different direction because society had different fears than we do now. And again, if one were a kid like I was during the original series, they may not have recognized the darkness being a relatively carefree kid.

Take my wife for instance, she LOVES the New Doctor Who...finds the Old Doctor Who boring.

I get a little frustrated with the paced of the old stories. I believe that's sign of our world at large though. We have instant entertainment at our fingertips, so why watch a show that takes 4 twenty minute episodes at minimum to tell a story that would be a half hour show today. Why wife and I watch because we recognize that there are good stories behind that pacing and exert our patience to watch them.

Personal take though, I love the 5th doctor, that's one of my favorites. I think I like the 3rd Doctor the best however. He simply LOOKS like the Doctor. The New Doctor Who...these guys just look young. Then again, that's another Americanization...they go for the youthful look rather than what one may imagine an old foggy kind of whacked out doctor may look like.

I was very leary of each new Doctor in the new series, for the youth issue as well, but they've definitely earned my admiration. The majority of my youth featured Tom Baker as the Doctor and he is still my favorite.

I refused to watch the 5th Doctor back then. Partly because I didn't like Tom Baker leaving, but my main reasoning was that he was too young. It's interesting the 5th Doctor is one of your favorites while pointing out that choosing youthful actors is "Americanizing." Colin Baker wasn't exactly old either. Even McCoy didn't seem that old. I don't think the new series has chosen young in an attempt to appeal to American viewers.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

2) pacing. Earlier series typically had storylines stretching several episodes, a la classic British murder mystery shows. Now, most story arcs are 1 and done.

I think the arcs have just changed format and I like the change. Each episode mostly stands alone, but the complete arc pulls together over the course of a season (this time I think it will actually be two seasons). You don't realize your in an arc until everything comes together in the end.

 

[Morrus]

No, more like Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Angel, Deep Space 9 (fairly popular prior to Doctor Who in the UK), and Smallville. It has that type of darkness in Doctor Who. Fantasy/Sci-Fi tinged with horror and grotesque things.

Edit: To be more clear...I also can see it in Music.

For example...

Lady Gaga, and American Singer is someone that Americans and Brits both listen too.

Robbie Williams and Little Boots are those that most in the US have not even heard of, much less listen to.

The fact that you're not familiar with them doesn't mean they don't exist, though. These things that "most Americans have never heard of " are very real, and much of it is extremely popular, and whether or not Americans like it does not even enter into the consciousness of the average viewer. There's plenty of "darker" TV and music outside of the US, and there has been for a very long time. As for "dark" - I don't consider your cited Buffy and Angel to be dark. Especially not compared to current UK dramas like Appropriate Adult, and Spooks, or even very old stuff like Blake's 7. Hell, even UK soaps (not that I watch them) have dark storylines - Eastenders has storylines about mature themes all the time, a recent example being one about a grieving mother who "switched" her baby for someone else's, and all the emotional turmoil that involves. I'd argue that the UK has been doing dark very well for a long, long time; I don't know whether the US has, but if it has I've not been privy to it. But I'll not deny that the US has been doing so simply because I didn't see it.

Indeed, the show we're talking about - Doctor Who - get more viewers in the UK than any comparable US genre show (such as Buffy and the like, and much, much more than things like Angel, Smallville, and the other shows you cited) did in the US. US genre shows simply don't get viewing figures of that level on the whole, with a few exceptions. The US market is not the primary market for Doctor Who; the 10-million weekly viewers at home are. It's nice that some US folks like it and all, but it's far from being a primary factor. It's a big, big show (the world's most successful sci-fi show ever in terms of viewing figures - more successful than the likes of Buffy, Lost, or BSG), produced by the world's largest broadcaster, and it's marketed towards the UK.

There's a strong argument that the US genre shows are the ones that "nobody has ever heard of", your own experience notwithstanding. The UK ones are seen by more people.

You're mistaking "Americanized" for "not being stuck in the mid-twentieth-century". Modern Britain, like modern America, is very different from what it was in the 1960s. Modernity - such as special effects - is not an "American" concept; it's a global concept closely linked to the linear passage of time. The world moves on.

As for music - check out some 70s British music, along the lines of Bowie and the like for darkness; or plenty of people before that for global popularity. I'd strongly argue that, given that the UK has one-fifth the population of the US, its influence on modern music is astonishingly prevalent and that it has influenced American music just as much as vice versa. Only 8 artists have sold more than 300 million records; four of them are British (including the top one), three American, and one Swedish. Six have sold between 200-300 million records: three are British, and only one is American. If you look at that linked page, you'll see the UK featuring in the lists far more often than its size would suggest.

That of course, is historical - if you look at the biggest bands in the world today, you're talking U2, Coldplay, and the like. Again, firmly on this side of the pond. Or your biggest TV shows - British produced and starring reality shows like American Idol (Simon Fuller produces, Simon Cowell starred, British crew) are actual direct copies of existing UK shows - and The X Factor (US) is going to eclipse even that. The biggest literature and movie franchises in the world right now? The work of a Brit called JK Rowling. Sports? The most famous sportsman in the world isn't a baseball or basketball player - it's a British football player called David Beckham. The biggest, most famous, and richest sports team in the world? A British football cub, Manchester United. In every conceivable entertainment industry, the British are right there at the top - influencing, creating, shaping, and being the one at the top of that chart, whatever it is. You look at it, the top entry will be British.

So, I'm afraid I must dispute your conjecture than most Americans have not heard of British stuff. The numbers say otherwise, and that the direction of influence is just as strong - if not stronger in some areas such as music - from the UK to the US, not just the other way round.

Oh, and I've never heard of "American Singer" - not that that in itself means anything. But it'd be fairly trivial for me to Google up some local American music acts and contrast them with some global-selling British ones, the way you did with Lady Gaga vs. Robbie Williams. Why didn't you choose Coldplay? Or U2? Or Elton John? Or Adele, currently the most popular female singer in the world and dominating your music charts right now? Or a hundred other current British musicians who have sold vastly more records than Lady Gaga? Even Kylie Minogue (an Australian, but most popular in the UK) beats her in every measurable way - more records, more sales, equally pop-crap.

In summary: your conclusion, based merely on the fact that Who has better special effects than it did 50 years ago, that British culture mimics American is fatally flawed, and demonstrably shown to be the reverse in a not-insignificant number of instances. This little island 3000 miles away has far more influence than you think it does.

And yes, I agree it goes both ways. I wouldn't be so gauche as to say the US does not have equal influence. But one cannot deny that the UK has a phenomenal global influence in these things; always has, always will. Despite being a fifth of the size.

 

[GreyLord]

I refused to watch the 5th Doctor back then. Partly because I didn't like Tom Baker leaving, but my main reasoning was that he was too young. It's interesting the 5th Doctor is one of your favorites while pointing out that choosing youthful actors is "Americanizing." Colin Baker wasn't exactly old either. Even McCoy didn't seem that old. I don't think the new series has chosen young in an attempt to appeal to American viewers.

Here's a slight admission. He may not originally have been one of my favorites...BUT I have a relative who looks JUST like the 5th doctor (aka Peter Davidson) that one may even think he may be the 5th doctor in disguise...

He happens to be one of my favorites in regards to my relatives...and he also happens to be a HUGE Science Fiction fan. He's an awesome guy. Rather soft spoken, and really nice.

So, I'm a bit biased because of that.