D&D 5E Making a Paladin

[Warpiglet-7]

wanted some feedback about a few options….

My friend sent a clip from Excalibur so I had to play an armored knight. I am playing a devotion Paladin in a starter kit. Of course I wanted to put my own stamp on it and ultimately get to upper tier one day. I did point but. We are technically third level but since this was so on the fly, DM is ok with me switching fighting style etc.

I just made my oath: devotion. I have the noble background (favored son of a middling earl).

I was thinking about long term options and short term ones. There are a few decision points:

A: start of with defense vs dueling style

B: take resilient con vs. warcaster

My thought was to play to defense early. I took heavy armor master at 1st. And thought it might be fun to cast divine shield and protection from evil to be an even harder target at times. And I would also cast bless in combat for me and the front liners at times.

I was thinking I would fight this way to 8th or 12th if we make it and then switch it to a big weapon and no shield vs BBEG.

So advice for item A and B appreciated…

 

[jmartkdr2]

Defense means more weapon options - you can just use whatever you find, they're all equally good. Dueling is better base damage but locks you into longswords etc. I had a lot of fun with defense and switching loadout as needed. (although once you get a major magic weapon that tend to be you're universal go-to.)

As for feats: I've played several paladins and Con saves are not an issue. You're not getting hit a lot lot (because of all that AC), you'll going to add charisma anyways by level 6 when the number of saves starts to go up, and you won't be concentrating on valuable spells very often - Divine Smite is by far the best use of a spell slot offensively, and the best defensive spell is either protection from good and evil (if you're fighting fiends) or shield of faith (otherwise) - both of which will reduce the number of saves you need to make.

So unless you really want to make bless you're signature spell, investing on con saves is probably not worth it. Even then, I'm not sure it's a big deal because you'll get enough slots to keep a low-level option up and +1d4 is a plenty big boost.

In short: I wouldn't worry about con save feats unless you find that in actual play you're failing them a lot. I predict you won't have to make many at all, and will pass most of those, just from basic paladin toughness.

 

[humble minion]

wanted some feedback about a few options….

My friend sent a clip from Excalibur so I had to play an armored knight. I am playing a devotion Paladin in a starter kit. Of course I wanted to put my own stamp on it and ultimately get to upper tier one day. I did point but. We are technically third level but since this was so on the fly, DM is ok with me switching fighting style etc.

I just made my oath: devotion. I have the noble background (favored son of a middling earl).

I was thinking about long term options and short term ones. There are a few decision points:

A: start of with defense vs dueling style

B: take resilient con vs. warcaster

My thought was to play to defense early. I took heavy armor master at 1st. And thought it might be fun to cast divine shield and protection from evil to be an even harder target at times. And I would also cast bless in combat for me and the front liners at times.

I was thinking I would fight this way to 8th or 12th if we make it and then switch it to a big weapon and no shield vs BBEG.

So advice for item A and B appreciated…

Don’t worry about either of those feats. While paladins do get good concentration spells and will get hit a lot, even if you lose concentration on a spell, you can simply bring up Shield of Faith or Compelled Duel or something as a bonus action to replace it. Both of them are good options, even though I prefer Bless given the choice. However, Bless is an action to cast. As a Devotion paladin you’ll want Sacred Blade running as much as possible, so the ideal pre-combat prep time is starting to get significant. You just won’t always (or even often) get two full rounds to bring your buffs online before combat starts. So keep a bonus action buff spell prepared too.

You can’t cast both protection from evil and shield of faith at the same time. They’re both concentration. Keep Shield of Faith prepared (protection from evil is an oath spell, conveniently) and use protection from evil when you have prep time before fighting undead or fiends, and shield of faith the rest of the time.

Maxing your your AC and enduring power with hvy armour master, shield, defence fighting style, shield of faith etc could be interesting, but with a one-handed weapon and no duelling fighting style you’re not going to hit very hard until you get to mid levels and can smite better & more often. That’s not a disaster by any means, but you might want to think about your group makeup and whether there’s anyone else who can take up the heavy hitter role. Potions of growth are pretty handy and long-lasting damage boosts that don’t need concentration, grab a few of those if you can.

 

[Mort]

Defense means more weapon options - you can just use whatever you find, they're all equally good. Dueling is better base damage but locks you into longswords etc. I had a lot of fun with defense and switching loadout as needed. (although once you get a major magic weapon that tend to be you're universal go-to.)

As for feats: I've played several paladins and Con saves are not an issue. You're not getting hit a lot lot (because of all that AC), you'll going to add charisma anyways by level 6 when the number of saves starts to go up, and you won't be concentrating on valuable spells very often - Divine Smite is by far the best use of a spell slot offensively, and the best defensive spell is either protection from good and evil (if you're fighting fiends) or shield of faith (otherwise) - both of which will reduce the number of saves you need to make.

So unless you really want to make bless you're signature spell, investing on con saves is probably not worth it. Even then, I'm not sure it's a big deal because you'll get enough slots to keep a low-level option up and +1d4 is a plenty big boost.

In short: I wouldn't worry about con save feats unless you find that in actual play you're failing them a lot. I predict you won't have to make many at all, and will pass most of those, just from basic paladin toughness.

Have to say, my experience with Paladins has been drastically different.

In my friends game:

started with a paladin and figured with a starting AC of 19, I could be a bit lax on Con and wouldn't have to worry so much about Con saves (Paladins are pretty MAD). So went with a Con of 12. We started at 5th level so that put HP at 39. I was very, very wrong. got hit enough that making concentration saves stunk PLUS in the first 2 sessions, I went down in EVERY fight. It was irritating to the point where I asked the DM if I could rejigger the PC. Changed things around a bit by taking resilient CON (had, had Shield Master and Con was now 16 at the expense of some Strength and somewhere else) . Between the extra HP and the MUCH better Con saves (to the point that by 6th level I was auto-succeeding on con saves of 10 or less, which was great) I was faring significantly better in combat. Character is 10th level now, and even with a base AC of 21 still gets hit a ton. I'm very happy having taken resilient CON!

As for Duelist vs. Defense? That is a toss up. I took Duelist, and HAVE had some situations where weapons we found were not as good for me as a result. I'm happy with duelist and think it works for the character, but defense would have been totally fine.

 

[Warpiglet-7]

Have to say, my experience with Paladins has been drastically different.

In my friends game:

started with a paladin and figured with a starting AC of 19, I could be a bit lax on Con and wouldn't have to worry so much about Con saves (Paladins are pretty MAD). So went with a Con of 12. We started at 5th level so that put HP at 39. I was very, very wrong. got hit enough that making concentration saves stunk PLUS in the first 2 sessions, I went down in EVERY fight. It was irritating to the point where I asked the DM if I could rejigger the PC. Changed things around a bit by taking resilient CON (had, had Shield Masterand Con was now 16 at the expenses of some Strength and somewhere else) . Between the extra HP and the MUCH better Con saves (to the point that by 6th level I was auto-succeeding on con saves of 10 or less, which was great) I was faring significantly better in combat. Character is 10th level now, and even with a base AC of 21 still gets hit a ton. I'm very happy having taken resilient CON!

As for Duelist vs. Defense? That is a toss up. I took Duelist, and HAVE had some situations where weapons we found were not as good for me as a result. I'm happy with duelist and think it works for the character, but defense would have been totally fine.

Damn! I was just about settled! Ha!

If I go point buy with heavy armor master, think I could still have 16 str, con, chr by 4th…

But I am hearing don’t skimp on HP…

I guess what will I want to concentrate on? I did not realize I could do shield of faith with a bonus action.

Can’t do everything and that is part of the fun/challenge…

 

[Mort]

Damn! I was just about settled! Ha!

If I go point buy with heavy armor master, think I could still have 16 str, con, chr by 4th…

But I am hearing don’t skimp on HP…

I guess what will I want to concentrate on? I did not realize I could do shield of faith with a bonus action.

Can’t do everything and that is part of the fun/challenge…

Concentration makes for hard choices. I'm often torn!

Keep in mind, Sacred weapon is an action, so if you get into combat and want to use it - the first action is on that (as opposed to the vengeance paladin's oath which is a bonus action). That means first round you're limited to bonus action spells, fortunately there are LOTS of options, for ex:

Compelled Duel is situational but good if there's a primary big bad;
shield of faith is an easy go to;
Any of the various smite spells, so your actual first hit (for next round) packs extra oomph.
Divine favor isn't too bad and gets better with multiple attacks, plus isn't limited to a single weapon or foe. PLUS it actually works for ranged weapons if you're forced in that direction - something paladin's are notoriously bad at.

but ALL of these are concentration and if you get smacked before you go again, you want to give yourself the best chance of keeping the spell.

 

[Mort]

But I am hearing don’t skimp on HP…

Yeah, I'd agree.

Another thing I noticed, when fighting mooks (which my DM LOVES) they don't hit often. But when they do, it tends to be a crit so they hit HARD.

Name brand Bad Guys don't have THAT hard a time hitting AC 20+ and also tend to hit hard when they connect.

Paladins don't (and generally can't) be off the front line, they're taking a lot of hits (and, frankly, that's what they SHOULD be doing). Skimping on HP is inadvisable!

 

[Warpiglet-7]

Yeah, I'd agree.

Another thing I noticed, when fighting mooks (which my DM LOVES) they don't hit often. But when they do, it tends to be a crit so they hit HARD.

Name brand Bad Guys don't have THAT hard a time hitting AC 20+ and also tend to hit hard when they connect.

Paladins don't (and generally can't) be off the front line, they're taking a lot of hits (and, frankly, that's what they SHOULD be doing). Skimping on HP is inadvisable!

I have, going back to 1e, hated low hit points. Clerics wizards, fighters paladins….never enjoyed low hit points.

I may split the difference and pump con early to 16. That way I have better hp and a better bonus to concentration checks.

Not trying to dominate the game…but do want to avoid regular frustration!

 

[Mort]

I have, going back to 1e, hated low hit points. Clerics wizards, fighters paladins….never enjoyed low hit points.

I may split the difference and pump con early to 16. That way I have better hp and a better bonus to concentration checks.

EVERY time I think "It's ok, I can skimp and risk low HP..." It's bitten me in the butt (1e forward)!

Not trying to dominate the game…but do want to avoid regular frustration!

Paladin's are very party friendly. Other players don't generally complain because having the Paladin anywhere near them is such a huge benefit.

At least once a session and exchange like:

Me: Don't forget to add +3 to that save!

Other player: what? oh yeah, you're within 10' - thank god!

Me: Well yeah, you'd better thank Pelor, or we'll have words later!

or something like that.

 

[Ancalagon]

Maxing your your AC and enduring power with hvy armour master, shield, defence fighting style, shield of faith etc could be interesting, but with a one-handed weapon and no duelling fighting style you’re not going to hit very hard until you get to mid levels and can smite better & more often. That’s not a disaster by any means, but you might want to think about your group makeup and whether there’s anyone else who can take up the heavy hitter role. Potions of growth are pretty handy and long-lasting damage boosts that don’t need concentration, grab a few of those if you can.

I've seen this three times now. The paladin's damage output can be ... rather paltry if smite if your only source of extra damage, especially at low levels or in a many encounters per day game