Mike Mearls CN/CG Chaos Pantheon for 5e Nethir Vale

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
Hmm... The more I read about Mike Mearls’ take on my favorite D&D setting, the less I like it. I mean, it’s his homebrew, more power to him for making it his own. But it’s very, very different than how I would run Nentir Vale.
 

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Staffan

Legend
Mike has changed it from a war between gods and primordials to one between gods and demons. Furthermore, it seems like this is an ongoing war as well. Probably changes the creation myth as well, but it need not have much effect on the Nentir Vale
It's been a while since I dug into 4e mythology, but as I recall the Abyss there is part of the Elemental Chaos that was corrupted by something Tharizdun did, and so the Demon Princes are warped Primordials anyway. So there's not necessarily a contradiction there.
 

dave2008

Legend
It's been a while since I dug into 4e mythology, but as I recall the Abyss there is part of the Elemental Chaos that was corrupted by something Tharizdun did, and so the Demon Princes are warped Primordials anyway. So there's not necessarily a contradiction there.

That is true. Though not all demon princes were once Primordials and not all Primordials became demons.

However, Mike has also made some gods Vecna, Tiamat, & Lolth (off the top of my head) into Demon Princes for his homebrew 5e Nentir Vale compaign, so that is a bit more of a revision. Of course, I think it works just fine that way as well - though I really liked the primordials.
 

dave2008

Legend
Hmm... The more I read about Mike Mearls’ take on my favorite D&D setting, the less I like it. I mean, it’s his homebrew, more power to him for making it his own. But it’s very, very different than how I would run Nentir Vale.

In what way? I haven't seen anything about he would run it, just his revised cosmology. Where can I find the info about what he plans to run differently (other than of course using the 5e rule set).
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
In what way? I haven't seen anything about he would run it, just his revised cosmology. Where can I find the info about what he plans to run differently (other than of course using the 5e rule set).

Sorry, maybe “How he would run it” was a poor choice of words. The revisions to the cosmology were what I was referring to.
 


Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
Got it, and this is the perfect opportunity to ask:

How would you re-organize / revise the 4e Nentir Vale Cosmology for 5e.

I don’t see any reason the cosmology would need to be revised for 5e. 5e is a set of game rules, not a world setting. Just as it was unnecessary to revise the Forgotten Realms cosmology for 4e (and pissed off a lot of FR fans in so doing.)
 

dave2008

Legend
I don’t see any reason the cosmology would need to be revised for 5e. 5e is a set of game rules, not a world setting. Just as it was unnecessary to revise the Forgotten Realms cosmology for 4e (and pissed off a lot of FR fans in so doing.)

I agree with you (well except for the Primal Spirits that I removed from my 4e games as well). However, when you said, "But it’s very, very different than how I would run Nentir Vale." It implied to me that there were some changes you might make.

I don't see the need to change it because a change of editions either, so let me re-phrase the question:

How would you change the Nentir Vale cosmology?

If I was to change something I would:

1) Get rid of the part about the Primal Spirits banning Gods and Primordials from the World. I've never liked that part. I would keep the primal spirits, but make them a little less powerful than the greater gods and primordials.

2) I actually like the idea of the elemental chaos having areas where certain elements dominate, so you have a plane of fire, a plane of water, etc. inside of or attached to the elemental chaos.

3) Put Tiamat back on Avernus.

4) Possibly revise the death of Io / birth of Tiamat and Bahamut

5) I would not try to weave every old story into the new cosmology. I much preferred the start of 4e when it was mostly new and sometimes contradictory information. I liked it less when they tried to weave in old stories (elemental princes, miska & the seven rods, etc.)
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
I agree with you (well except for the Primal Spirits that I removed from my 4e games as well). However, when you said, "But it’s very, very different than how I would run Nentir Vale." It implied to me that there were some changes you might make.

I don't see the need to change it because a change of editions either, so let me re-phrase the question:

How would you change the Nentir Vale cosmology?
Ahh, I see. In that case, what I would change would be similar to what you say you would, particularly the part about not trying to include every story that eventually got referenced throughout 4e’s run. I’d pair it back to the core ideas of the setting and restore some of the mystery. My guiding philosophy, if I were to redux Nentir Vale would be “folklore, not history.” The Dawn War, for example, defines a great deal about the setting, but as 4e went on, the events of the Dawn War became more and more clearly defined. I would make it, rather than a historical event that objectively happened, a common element that occurs in myths throughout the world. Much like how in real life, almost every culture has a Great Flood myth, I would have every culture on Nerath have a First War myth. And many of those stories might have common elements, while many others would contradict each other.

One of the biggest changes I would make would be to break up the pantheon. In keeping with the “folklore, not history” design directive, I’d have different cultures revere different entities, some of which might share common elements that might hint at some deeper truth, but I wouldn’t have any objective facts about what that truth is, if it exists at all.

So, take for example the story of Asmodeus’ betrayal of He Who Was. Maybe the dominant religion in Bael Turath was originally monotheistic, and dedicated to this forgotten god, now remembered only as He Who Was. Maybe this religion was eventually displaced by the worship of nine divine Princes. And so, they might tell stories of an overbearing god who demanded his followers reject all other deities, but was justly overthrown by his angels, who brought order and prosperity to the Turathi empire. Meanwhile, the Dragonborn might say that these Turathi gods are devils, to whom the Turathi nobles sold their souls to secure their rule, turning their backs on the one true god, IO, in the process. Meanwhile, the polytheistic Nerathi might say that He Who Was was originally part of their pantheon, before being killed by Asmodeus. These conflicting tales, when taken together, paint a picture of what may have been, without giving any hard answers, and makes the Nentir Vale a bit less of a monoculture.

Actually, this idea of how I would modify Nentir Vale cosmology was the initial inspiration for my homebrew setting. I’ve changed all of the names, and a lot of the details to make it my own, but many of the core ideas can be traced back to Nentir Vale.
 
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dave2008

Legend
Ahh, I see. In that case, what I would change would be similar to what you say you would, particularly the part about not trying to include every story that eventually got referenced throughout 4e’s run. I’d pair it back to the core ideas of the setting and restore some of the mystery. My guiding philosophy, if I were to redux Nentir Vale would be “folklore, not history.” .

Yes, that was my favorite part about the early 4e cosmology.
 

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