Monk Help

[Elocin]

Ok, a friend of mine is making my head hurt by trying to get the maximum amount of damage to come out of a Monk. He will make all the abaility prereqs but he was wondering if he missed something.

He is starting with a human 21st level monk using fluury of blows what would be his base attack bonus's for Flurry of Blows using the following feats and what would the damage be for each hit?

Improved Unarmed Attack
OA - Combat style Empty Hand Mastery
- Fists of Iron
- Eagle Claw Attack
- Ki Shout
- Sunder (anyone can now Sunder a weapon in 3.5)
Improved Natural Attacks (MM)
Two Weapon Fighting
Improved TWF
Greater TWF
Perfect TWF (epic book)

He came up with this and I was wondering if it was right?

+13/+13/+13/+13/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3/+3 doing 12d6 points of damage with each hit?

Thanks in advance.

 

[UltimaGabe]

You have him making 6 attacks at his highest base attack bonus. Maybe I'm missing something, but at most, he should only be doing 4 (one for his main attack, two from flurry of blows, and one from two-weapon fighting). It's possible you may have regarded the two extra attacks from Flurry of Blows as viable for doubling from two-weapon fighting, but that's not backed by the rules at all. Also, I don't know where the heck you're getting the 12d6 damage from.

Also, as far as I know, you have to be a monster to take Improved Natural Attack. (Isn't it a Monstrous feat?)

You listed "Improved Unarmed Attack". Did you mean Improved Unarmed Strike, which Monks get at 1st level, or did you mean something else?

I'm not familiar with the Improved Combat style Empty Hand Mastery, Fists of Iron, Eagle Claw Attack, or Ki Shout feats/abilities, so I can't make judgments on those.

Anyway, even with the stats listed, I don't think it's all that great, considering he's never gonna hit with any of his secondary attacks, and even his main attacks are gonna be pale in comparison with a 21st-level Fighter's attacks.

 

[Elocin]

I am not sure where he is getting his information either, except for multiple threads from everywhere, including the WOTC website, so bare with me on most of this as it was giving me a headache when I was trying to decipher this, so I naturally enlisted the help of everyone on here who know a lot more than I do

You have him making 6 attacks at his highest base attack bonus. Maybe I'm missing something, but at most, he should only be doing 4 (one for his main attack, two from flurry of blows, and one from two-weapon fighting). It's possible you may have regarded the two extra attacks from Flurry of Blows as viable for doubling from two-weapon fighting, but that's not backed by the rules at all..

Ok I understand this so the number of attacks should only be:
+13/+13/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3/+3
As the TWF feat tree only apply to his BASE attacks.

Also, I don't know where the heck you're getting the 12d6 damage from..

Neither do I as I think he goofed up here and started at 4d8 instead of 2d10 which is the damage a 20th level monk does, so the most damage he will be doing is 6d8 per attack.

Also, as far as I know, you have to be a monster to take Improved Natural Attack. (Isn't it a Monstrous feat?)

I was unaware of this but it does make sense, even though in the feat description it does say general (currently he has made a Gnoll Monk so he would be able to take this but he would only be 18th level and not have enough feats/levels to gain the epic feat Perfect TWF).

You listed "Improved Unarmed Attack". Did you mean Improved Unarmed Strike, which Monks get at 1st level, or did you mean something else?

Yes, sorry about that.

I'm not familiar with the Improved Combat style Empty Hand Mastery, Fists of Iron, Eagle Claw Attack, or Ki Shout feats/abilities, so I can't make judgments on those.

All this really is, is an expanded martial arts category. If you have all the sub feats you gain a little bonus ability, which in this case would advance his damage one more size category.

Anyway, even with the stats listed, I don't think it's all that great, considering he's never gonna hit with any of his secondary attacks, and even his main attacks are gonna be pale in comparison with a 21st-level Fighter's attacks.

This is also very true as a +13 on your base attack for Flurry of Blows is not all that great as we are fighting CR 20+ creatures and all thier AC's are in the 40's or so. Mind you with magic he will be able to jack up his hits but he will still be missing a whole lot. So what we are looking at is if he is using Flurry of Blows the maximum number of attacks he will be able to do is:

+13/+13/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3/+3 doing 6d8 per attack.

Except I just put in this monk into one of the best character sheets ever made, Hero Forge, and it came out to this:

+11/+11/+11/+6/+6/+1/+1/-4 at 6d8 points of damage.

I think I will go with this last one as I think this makes more sense

Thanks again for all your help, but my brain still hurts.

 

[Camarath]

I was unaware of this but it does make sense, even though in the feat description it does say general (currently he has made a Gnoll Monk so he would be able to take this but he would only be 18th level and not have enough feats/levels to gain the epic feat Perfect TWF).

An Unarmed Strike is not a Natural Weapon and so its damage can not be increased with the Improved Natural Attack feat.

 

[Camarath]

Ok I understand this so the number of attacks should only be:
+13/+13/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3/+3
As the TWF feat tree only apply to his BASE attacks.

That looks right to me.

Neither do I as I think he goofed up here and started at 4d8 instead of 2d10 which is the damage a 20th level monk does, so the most damage he will be doing is 6d8 per attack.

I believe that Empty Hand Mastery is the only ability he has that would increase his Unarmed Strike damage thus his damage would be 4d8.

Except I just put in this monk into one of the best character sheets ever made, Hero Forge, and it came out to this:

+11/+11/+11/+6/+6/+1/+1/-4 at 6d8 points of damage.

Is the character sheet 3.0 or 3.5 because Flurry of Blows changed and this looks like the old Flurry of Blows?

 

[Elocin]

Pretty sure Hero Forge's character sheet is 3.5 rules. Follow this link here to get to the website...

http://home.san.rr.com/blackbart/

Thanks again all for helping us out here.

 

[Artoomis]

An Unarmed Strike is not a Natural Weapon and so its damage can not be increased with the Improved Natural Attack feat.

Incorrect.

However, this is just muddy enough that WoTC published a specific feat in Eberron that is the same as the MM feat but specifically points our that it applies to monks, IIRC.

From the SRD: "A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons."

I don't really want to get this thread off-track though, so let's just agree that there are two points of view here with evidence that can be used to back up either point of view, okay?

 

[Camarath]

However, this is just muddy enough that WoTC published a specific feat in Eberron that is the same as the MM feat but specifically points our that it applies to monks, IIRC.

The feat in Eberron does not mention the Monk or Unamred Strike at all. It does mention the Shifter and that the Shifter can use the feat to increase it's natural weapons.

 

[Camarath]

From the SRD: "A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons."

I do not believe that a prerequisite is an effect.

Edit: Here is the old thread on this topic.

 

[Artoomis]

I do not believe that a prerequisite is an effect.

Edit: Here is the old thread on this topic.

Definately visit that thread for this discussion.

No, a prerequisite is not an "effect." Talking about "prerequities" is a red herring. If you could hang your hat on that, then spells, etc., for natural weapons would not work for a monk either. Increasing the damage dice is an effect. This was discussed before, let's not bring it all here.

The bottom line, I think, is that as written it will work (or at least a strong argument exists for it), so the real question is one of intent. It's a DM's call, just like everything else, really.