D&D (2024) Monk Playtest

[tetrasodium]

Spoiler: The'thing'

IMO, they are supposed to be skirmishers and assassins. They get lots of movement buffs.

So running past the front line to punch the wizard in the back and get him to drop concentration, or getting in the archers face to give them disadvantage. Not standing still trading blows with a guy in armor and a great sword.

Could probably emphasize it a bit more at level 1.
Evasive footwork: "when you take the dash action, you do not provoke opportunity attacks until the end of your turn."

Now at level 2, you can spend a bonus action + ki, jump over the front line and kick an archer in the back.

Something no other class can do. (Except the occasional misty step).

Except a rogue, who can do basically the same thing without having to use the ki.

No not quite, look at the math. The rogue is easy, it deals 1d8+5+[1/2level]d6. A sizable amount of damage yes. The monk is no slouch there though & without using resources other than action & bonus action it does damage that is fairly similar to the rogue all day through all of the 6-8 encounters the GM is expected to throw out.

mellored's example of punching a wizard in back to make him drop concentration is where things start changing dramatically though. The rogue with cunning action needs to force a failed save but the monk with +10 no action cost speed has two options. The choice is simply to declare "and I'm going to make that a stunning strike" on any or even all of those 2-4 attacks that succeed to trigger a con save or stun where concentration continues but the caster can't action/bonus action cast more spells or trigger the ongoing effect as applicable to the spell being concentrated on. In actual play with 5e spells the value of ensuring the caster won't cast another spell & granting everyone advantage on attacks against them is almost always dramatically more useful than ending concentration. If you replace "caster with ogre troll firegiant or whatever the same complete nullification from the monk holds true"

Yes at low levels Ki is fairly limited but in late tier2 & into tier3+ that's not so true. My current group just hit level 10 & with an assumed 2 short rests most adventuring days the monk in the party has up to 30 or more points of Ki every adventuring day giving it plenty of gas in the tank to nullify any weighty elite type monsters they face. If by chance all of the monsters are elite types that might tax the monk's Ki then the group has a good case to force a short rest either by refusing to continue or pulling back to rest a bit.

 

[Clint_L]

He specifically gave the example as "at Level 2..." after I had pointed out that playing monks at low levels is particularly lame. I was merely pointing out that Cunning Action, which rogues get at Level 2, is generally as good as or better than Step of the Wind, and doesn't even use a resource aside from the bonus action (one change to make Step of the Wind more viable would be to make it something that is done as part of movement rather than as a bonus action, leaving that free for the secondary attack).

Monks are fun in concept. But the wide consensus is that they are a weak class because their damage isn't very impressive, they are fragile for frontline fighters, and ki is a problem at low levels. A level 1 monk is basically just a dude with a stick. At level 2 you get 2 ki points, so after that step of the wind you could do one flurry of blows (i.e. one extra stick attack) and then you are dude with stick again. At level 5 they finally get decent (not great), and that's because stunning strike is a legitimately potent ability, so they spam it whenever possible. They're like a Smash Bros character with one good move. It's around level 7-8 that they basically graduate to being a decent class...but WotC tells us that the vast majority of campaigns end around that time, or sooner.

Diamond Soul is amazing, so for the 1% of monks who get to that level (high level campaigns are WAY overrepresented on forums like this), I'm sure life is great. But it is a problem that in a typical campaign (again, per WotC) monks are kinda sucky. And it's not like this is news - players have been saying this about 5e monks since 2014. So OneD&D needs to give them a bit of a tune-up, and I think it needs to be something that will help them be more fun right at level 1.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

While true, it also feels different when the ability in question is (more?) iconic for the class that pays a higher cost to use it.

The monk has more base mobility than the rogue. At least at higher levels.
I don't disagree with you, but it is also something to consider.

I think by now, cunning action is pretty iconic for the rogue, and giving the monk the same would somehow dwarf the rogue ability.
I do think, that step of the wind could emhasize the jump bonus way more, so that the bonus dash seems just a nice add on.
Maybe now that jump is an action, step of the wind might just allow jumping as a bonus action with extra oomph.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

No not quite, look at the math. The rogue is easy, it deals 1d8+5+[1/2level]d6. A sizable amount of damage yes. The monk is no slouch there though & without using resources other than action & bonus action it does damage that is fairly similar to the rogue all day through all of the 6-8 encounters the GM is expected to throw out.

Your damage sheet for the monk has an error. You gove two more attack damages for the flurry, instead of just one above normal action/bonus action attack.

I don't expect onednd to change that.
You also don't factor in correctly, that the monk can chose, which attack gets the SA damage, so if the rogue attacks woth 2 weapons, a rogue has a higher chance to apply (close to) max damage each and every round.

That said, I think the monk is still very good at dealing damage. Especially with tavern brawler and bonusactionless offhand attacks are a boon for both the rogue and the monk.

 

[tetrasodium]

Your damage sheet for the monk has an error. You gove two more attack damages for the flurry, instead of just one above normal action/bonus action attack.

I don't expect onednd to change that.
You also don't factor in correctly, that the monk can chose, which attack gets the SA damage, so if the rogue attacks woth 2 weapons, a rogue has a higher chance to apply (close to) max damage each and every round.

That said, I think the monk is still very good at dealing damage. Especially with tavern brawler and bonusactionless offhand attacks are a boon for both the rogue and the monk.

Thanks I corrected the bonus action doubling to fix the numbers

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Thanks I corrected the bonus action doubling to fix the numbers

And it is still totally in line with rogue damage. Especially when considering stunnig strike and magic staves on top.
And subclasses, which bring a lot more to the table than rogue subclasses. Our way of shadow monk with free teleportation was very annoying to deal with or outrun.

 

[Bill Zebub]

And it is still totally in line with rogue damage. Especially when considering stunnig strike and magic staves on top.
And subclasses, which bring a lot more to the table than rogue subclasses. Our way of shadow monk with free teleportation was very annoying to deal with or outrun.

I just realized (maybe it was already said in this thread and I missed it) that shadow monks will especially benefit from the new dual wield rules, but only if they tweak martial arts to use the same rules.

 

[shadowoflameth]

I agree on the flurry and the number of attacks. Just throwing thoughts out there. Perhaps if the ki point allowed the monk to add a proficiency bonus number of attacks. Don't want to over complicate too much. I don't think the number of ki points is out of line it goes up comparably to the sorcerers sorcery points, but if there is less demand on them from abilities that shouldn't need it, I think it would be fine. Stunning strike can make monks a one trick pony, but perhaps not so much if the sub classes actually had powers that were competitive choices to spend the points on.

 

[shadowoflameth]

Patient Defense and Step of the Wind combined are not as good as the Rogue's Cunning Action. I realized after the fact that I said nothing about Unarmored Defense. There is a strong MAD in the monk, much more than the Barbarian having Unarmored Defense on Constitution. The monk's AC is mediocre. Not terrible but not plate armor. I think a lot of the problem players find is that they run out of Ki just stunning because with many sub-classes it is their only truly effective combat ability. WoTC seems afraid of OPing the monk with a sub-class that actually improves the monks effectiveness by taking it.

 

[shadowoflameth]

My thoughts on the sub-classes, limiting myself to the Players Handbook as these are likely to be considered for play test in One D&D.

The Way of the Open Hand. Probably the strongest combat monk subclass in the PHB (IMHO)

Open Hand Technique. These are decent effects, but with changes to how Unarmed Strikes work may need to change. The No Reactions option is something that will happen anyway if you are stunned, so maybe just make the knocked prone or pushed something that happens if you use Stunning strike whether it succeeds or not.

Wholeness of Body. 3 times your Monk level is an amount of healing close to 3 hit dice when you rest. Something that the Monk could do anyway without this sub-class. Perhaps just say that as an action, the Monk can spend hit dice to heal. It scales, it consumes a resource and it allows something that others, even other monks can't do. It's not a terrible ability though.

Tranquility. This can help save you from an ambush attack, but it's not strong for a 11th level ability. Don't make it a spell, just something that the Open Hand Monk has. It can have a save DC but if it's not a spell, then dispelling it won't work. I would also think it's OK to make it effective when the monk rolls initiative. Even if it's once per day, being able to choose when it comes into effect would make it more in line with this level.

Quivering Palm. This is interesting. It can be devastating but at 17th or 18th if the levels are changed in play testing, it should be. Make it effective immediately without using an action to activate or up to a number of days in the future. Most players will want it to just go off. Make a failed save equal necrotic damage equal to the targets maximum hit points and a success do half that amount, meaning possibly reduced to zero anyway.

The Way of Shadows

Shadow Arts. I would recommend the language be in line with more recent published abilities. You get these spells 1/day with no components and can spend 1 Ki Point per spell level to do it again. You can also use slots if you have them. Generally though, this is an OK ability.

Shadow Step. 60' teleport is good and dim light or darkness come up often.

Cloak of Shadows. This is a nice ability. It might not need much change.

Opportunist. This is not much for 17th level, or 18th if the levels change. I would take away the attack by someone else requirement and just say when the target is hit (including by you) you can use Flurry of Blows as a reaction, even if you've already done it as a bonus action on this turn.

Way of Four Elements. Here we go.

This is possibly the worst designed subclass in the game. Maybe I shouldn't sugar coat it so much, it's worthless and it's options hurt your character to use compared to options that your monk has just being a monk. Please WoTC put this in the next play test. Que rant. As always, my opinion only. If you think playing this is fun, all respect. Have fun.

Casting Elemental Spells. Give the Way of Four Elements Cantrips. Some spells are simply not worth even one Ki Point because they are not as valuable to use as a Stunning strike or Step of the Wind.

Then make the spell list be 1/day without components and cost 1 Ki point per level of the spell to do again. Make slots that the monk has, if any usable as with the language currently in use in Tasha's. Simple, useful and may at least give the spell a chance at being worth the resource.

With this change, make the maximum Ki Points spent in line and make the points spent to cast at all, if any count.

Monk levels 3rd-4th 2
5th-6th 3
7th-8th 4
9th-10th 5
11th-12th 6
13th-14th 7
15th-16th 8
17th-20th 9

This way Elemental Spells can be cast, up-cast, and be impactful scaling with the Monk level.

Elemental Disciplines. Make these all spells or all not spells. I recommend giving the monk an actual spell list and make the level requirements in line with the spell level. i.e. Breath of Winter (Cone of Cold) Level requirement 5th. (Not 17th) 5th. Ki Points to cast, 3. I still shake my head not knowing why they thought that Cone of Cold needed to take 6 Ki Points and be a 17th level ability.

Clench of the North (Hold Person) Level requirement 3rd. Ki Points to cast, 2.
Eternal Mountain Defense (Stoneskin) Level requirement 7th. Ki Points to cast 4.
Fist of Four Thunders (Thunderwave) Level requirement 3rd. Ki Points to cast, 2.
Flames of the Phoenix (Fireball) Level requirement 5th. Ki Points to cast, 3.
Gong of the Summit (Shatter) Level requirement 3rd. Ki Points to cast, 1.

I can go on but you get the idea. Drop Elemental Attunement in favor of cantrips.

Make the Non-spell Disciplines a separate ability and make each one resemble an element related feat. They could grant a bonus spell if you like with the appropriate level prerequisite.

My two cents on those. Granted on Way of Four Elements, I gave a buck and a half.