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D&D 5E Nerfing Great Weapon Master

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Fanaelialae

Legend
If you don't mind that it's broken (or, for that matter, revel in it), you don't need to fix it in your games.

Honestly, it's not about not minding or reveling in its brokeness, I don't see it as being broken at all. If you're using power attack on its own, the feat only adds a relatively modest DPR boost, because the extra damage is canceled out by additional misses. It's when you start stacking advantage, precise attack, bardic inspiration, bless, et al that the feat "breaks". That's not a broken feat in my book. It's simply a broken combo. If your players aren't the kinds of people to exploit that combo, then nothing about it is broken in your game.

As I've stated before, that isn't to say that I don't believe that it is broken in [MENTION=12731]CapnZapp[/MENTION] 's game, because he's said that his players do exploit combos like this one. Hence, we can exist in a relativized state where the feat is broken for someone like CapnZapp but not broken for someone like me.

I'm not opposed to the wish for a bulletproofed feat that can't be exploited, but based on comments that have been made by the WotC team it simply doesn't strike me as a very realistic goal. What do we do when we don't like a rule but TSR/WotC won't change it (I include TSR because it wasn't always WotC)? What we've always done; we house rule it. A solid house rule should fix the problem for those for whom the feat is broken, unless you play AL.

But I'm just one guy, so what do I know? Maybe if folks keep stressing out over this feat the WotC team will actually errata it. Maybe my agreement with the argument is the one thing preventing this hypothetical errata from becoming a reality. Anything's possible, I suppose. Nevertheless, I strongly doubt it.
 

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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I am going to take that smiley as indication you're not using that story to dismiss the concerns over GWM (and really, the concern is much more about SS/CE), since the experience I've had is as that the first fighter hits the orc without killing it while Sir DoesntDependOnCrits kills his orc, then kills a second orc.

So what. Many of us are not jealous of other players and enjoy the game for ourselves. Our happiness is no dependent on other people being held back.

The issue of softness has no bearing upon the discussion about -5/+10. This mechanism is severely broken regardless of whether you feel the game is challenging enough or not.

The thing is, you can't prove that. "Broken" is completely subjective. You personally FEEL that the -5/+10 is broken, so it is for YOU. Others here say it isn't broken for them, so it's an absolute fact that for them it isn't broken. Stop trying to force your one true way on other people and just change it for your game. It's really that simple.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Honestly, it's not about not minding or reveling in its brokeness, I don't see it as being broken at all.
Then it's not broken. The term broken as it's misused here = I personally feel like X mechanic is too powerful. What broken really means when used properly is breaks the game. One of the only examples I can think of was the 4e math where the +s broke down at higher levels. They introduced the feats to give +s to fix it, but those became a feat tax so it wasn't really a fix at all.
 


Tony Vargas

Legend
What broken really means when used properly is breaks the game.
Meh. You can change definitions in the middle of the discussion if you want. It's pretty clear from the way it's been used all these pages that it's about the feats being too powerful or too abuseable, rather than non-functional or game-breaking. An example of 'broken' in the non-functional sense from 4e (since you're already picking on it), would be the original skill challenge rules, that presented 'complexity' as a measure of how hard SCs were and how much exp they were worth, but which actually worked out to more complex challenges being more likely to end in success. That's a non-functional 'broken' rather than an OP/abuseable 'broken.'
One of the only examples I can think of was the 4e math where the +s broke down at higher levels.
They deviated from the implied 'treadmill' progression. That was a real thing, but it didn't really break the game - high-level characters had so many additional resources, they could do fine in spite of theoretically falling behind the curve. Didn't matter to the chorus of complainers, though, so...
They introduced the feats to give +s to fix it, but those became a feat tax so it wasn't really a fix at all.
The 'expertise' feats are a good example from 4e of feats like GWM/SS - too powerful compared to the alternatives. Maybe they arguably were meant to serve a purpose - shore up a weak class or build or whatever, or smooth the PC's power curve as they level or something, but they ended up sticking out from among the other feat choices. Ironically, some DMs would ban them.

Martial characters not focused on DPR contribute plenty to a team.
As long as we're quibbling about definitions (see immediately above), if we take 'martial' to mean 'uses martial weapons,' sure - a Paladin, for instance, has significant features and casting to contribute in a support role, even if he doesn't optimize for DPR and never smites, he can still be helping out the team in significant ways. If we take 'plenty to contribute' as including the simple feature of Bounded Accuracy that basically anyone, even checking at -1, might succeed on just about any check that anyone else might fail on (even if only on a really bad roll), and thus is contributing anytime checks are called for, again, sure, no doubt about it. ;)

Honestly, it's not about not minding or reveling in its brokeness, I don't see it as being broken at all.
IDK, 'is not broken all the time' the same as 'not broken at all?' (whatever the definition of broken) I don't think so. Not minding, not seeing, not noticing, not caring - however you want to put it, it's perfectly reasonable and plausible, and in no way contradicts the thing in question actually being broken having quantifiable issues.
. It's when you start stacking advantage, precise attack, bardic inspiration, bless, et al that the feat "breaks". That's not a broken feat in my book. It's simply a broken combo.
If you want to share out the 'blame' like that, it'd be fine as far as it goes. You open up more ways to 'fix' the issue, if nothing else.

If your players aren't the kinds of people to exploit that combo, then nothing about it is broken in your game.
Sure, in the sense that a stopped clock is right twice a day or a car that doesn't run works fine as long as you never need to go anywhere. It's a very practical sense, really.

Maybe, if folks keep stressing out over this feat the WotC team will actually errata it. .
I'm surprised WotC has issued any errata at all. When you present your system as a 'starting point' It's going to be changed, anyway.
 
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One point I've seen a few times from those in favor of GWM and SS as they are, is that it's meant to quickly kill off enemies with lower AC and hit points.

So how about this instead of -5/+10: Whenever you hit and deal damage with a melee attack with a heavy weapon (or with an attack from a ranged weapon in SS' case), if the creature's remaining hit points after you deal the damage are equal to or less than your level, it is reduced to 0 hit points.

There we go. The feat becomes perfect for killing mooks (and you don't even need to take a penalty to hit to do so), but your damage is brought back in line with everyone else when bringing down bigger game. And it scales with level so it's not too strong early.
 

Xeviat

Hero
I'm leaning toward going for -prof to hit/+ 2x prof to damage. The math is the same, but it's less of a damage spike in the beginning.

While I like the simplicity of Disadvantage, I'm mostly convinced it's not the best.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

If going the proficiency route, I'd prefer -1/2 prof (round down) to hit/+prof to damage. That'd top it off at -3/+6, which is about the limit of sanity for this mechanic in general.

-6/+12 at maximum would be way too much, even at Lv. 17.
 

Fanaelialae

Legend
IDK, is not broken all the time the same as not broken at all?

It's the same as not broken at all, provided you always occupy the time wherein it is not broken.

If you want to share out the 'blame' like that, it'd be fine as far as it goes. You open up more ways to 'fix' the issue, if nothing else.

It's not about sharing the blame. Chlorine and ammonia are both useful household cleaning products. Mix them together produces disastrous results. However, that doesn't prevent me from keeping both in the house and using each as I feel is best. I just don't allow them to mix.

Sure, in the sense that a stopped clock is right twice a day or a car that doesn't run works fine as long as you never need to go anywhere.

Those metaphors have no bearing on this topic. It's more like someone complaining that a Chevy Blazer is a terrible race car. Sure, they're right as far as that goes. It's engineered to be an SUV, not a race car. For anyone who doesn't try to treat it like a race car, it's a great vehicle. Safe, dependable, and roomy.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
It's the same as not broken at all, provided you always occupy the time wherein it is not broken.
lol.

It's not about sharing the blame. Chlorine and ammonia are both useful household cleaning products. Mix them together produces disastrous results. However, that doesn't prevent me from keeping both in the house and using each as I feel is best. I just don't allow them to mix.
A decent analogy. Allow your players to have various options, don't allow them to combine them in untoward ways (DM takes responsibility for the balance of his campaign) Or just trust them not to (player restraint).

It's more like someone complaining that a Chevy Blazer is a terrible race car. Sure, they're right as far as that goes. It's engineered to be an SUV, not a race car. For anyone who doesn't try to treat it like a race car, it's a great vehicle. Safe, dependable, and roomy.
That's fair. In that analogy, though 5e wouldn't be an SUV or a race car, it'd be a kit car billed as usable as either, and also as an economy commuter model.
So we install all the race car components (Feats & MCing &c), and then complain the fuel economy sucks ('broken'/imbalanced) and the speed limit's too low (too easy/soft).
 

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