NEW Immortals Handbook - Ascension thread

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

If a small being can exert enough energy, it might not matter.
Energy exerted it what damages the object it is exerted upon. Energy output is a function of mass. Density comes into play if that small being has huge mass. A black hole (virtually no volume/size, infinite/incalculable mass), for instance. At most points, the small being, even if it is ultra-strong/dense/magical/deadly/whatever can potentially output the same amount of energy as a creature many times it's size. (Though it would need a much higher density to achieve this

The small being might focus that damage in a small area, like the size of an indentation caused by it punching a planet, but that energy does have to go somewhere. If the small being outputs enough energy, it should be able to destroy a planet/galaxy/universe/timelord/etc. Thats a lot of energy.
Splitting-the-atom-is-child's-play-compared-to-this energy. But still, energy.

At least thats how physics can explain it.

However, most things can't auto-destroy themselves. Or things even much smaller. A lot of their energy output is wasted.

Lets take a guy named Joe, who wants to punch a brick wall. He pulls back and punches. His fist impacts the wall, transferring it's energy into it. Now, Joe might be able to break 1 brick alone. His output energy hits the brick, travels/echoes/disperses itself throughout the brick, and may cause damage. With the wall, which is one solid object, his punch sends the same amount of energy, and it gets diluted. Theres not enough energy to cause the same damage to the whole thing, or even to most of the brick he punched, because his energy evenly spread itself throughout the wall.

Why do I bring up the wall? Interpose "wall" with "person" and "Brick" with "Bone". I could probably snap a bone in half. (Over my knee, crush it with my heel, etc, depends on the bone) But with one punch, I couldn't break every bone in a person's body. (That would be cool though...) I would imagine this would apply to timelords as well. One Universe can't sunder another universe, unless it is bigger/better/stronger/more magical/deadlier/etc.

 

[zarquin]

I am nowhere suggesting that the destruction nessecairly go down to the molecular level, although it certainly could. I'm just saying that I'm capable of lifting thousands of an object, I *SHOULD* be able to sunder the object in a single hit. There might be mitigating resistances of specific objects that might limit this, but that should probably be the exception rather than the norm.

Why do I bring up the wall? Interpose "wall" with "person" and "Brick" with "Bone". I could probably snap a bone in half. (Over my knee, crush it with my heel, etc, depends on the bone) But with one punch, I couldn't break every bone in a person's body. (That would be cool though...) I would imagine this would apply to timelords as well. One Universe can't sunder another universe, unless it is bigger/better/stronger/more magical/deadlier/etc.

I agree that one universe can't sunder another universe unless it is bigger/better/stronger/more magical/deadlier/etc. That reason is why I was suggesting the 1000-fold lifting req.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi paradox matey!

I said it before, and I'll happily reiterate to chime in with others who've said it: VSCs being exponential does not mesh well with the otherwise linear system of damage and HD that D&D uses. Keeping the kludges up in the Eternal realm doesn't make them any less ugly or potentially unnecessary for that fact.

Well if we can come up with a superior alternative I am happy to listen.

The original idea for VSCs, as I see it, is that a creature that has the STR of a higher size category becomes super-dense and gains some of the benefits of that larger size- including higher base damage. You do this because you want the dice, and physical attacks, to stay relevant at ultra-high levels. Fine goal, but why should it be based on bringing the character the benefits of a larger size? Why should density (which is what your VSC mechanic is really designed to represent) provide benefits identical to larger sizes at all? Doesn't it make sense that a creature that started larger will gain correspondingly greater benefits for increased density (i.e. each VSC gained) than one that started smaller?

The benefits are not identical. A Colossal monster with 4 VSCs would gain +6d8 damage to its slams. While a Medium sized creature with 4 VSCs would gain +3d4 damage to its slams.

Perhaps a linear function for VSCs doesn't work particularly well, but how about polynomial? If the damage dice don't double at a set number of VSCs, but instead just increase based on, say, the square of the number of VSCs, then it becomes more manageable at ultra-high levels.

A tad more complicated too.

But interesting...lets take a look under the hood...

If we said, for example, that rather than a Medium creature dense enough to get 3 VSCs going from 1d4 on its punches to 2d6, it instead goes from 1d4 to 10d4 (1 + number of VSCs squared)- then your damage increase still happens, and becomes much more manageable at ridiculous levels. A Large creature in this scheme, with 3 VSCs would go from 1d6 base damage to 10d6. A Gargantuan creature would go from 2d6 to 20d6. In the lower realms of play this actually brings even greater benefit to the warrior-type than the exponential VSC mechanic does, but the average damage potential evens out with the exponential version around +16-+17 VSCs, and then falls behind after that. You don't get critters with +50 VSCs dealing millions of damage per hit this way, and you're generally rolling a lot more dice, but Epic games require absurd amounts of dice in any case so I don't see that as a significant issue.

Your System

Medium Fighter with greatsword and 40 strength (+2 VSCs) = 10d6+15 (50 damage)
Medium Fighter with greatsword and 70 strength (+4 VSCs) = 36d6+30 (156 average)
Medium Fighter with greatsword and 100 strength (+6 VSCs) = 74d6+45 (304 average)

Current System

Medium Fighter with greatsword and 40 strength (+2 VSCs) = 4d6+15 (29 damage)
Medium Fighter with greatsword and 70 strength (+4 VSCs) = 8d6+30 (58 damage)
Medium Fighter with greatsword and 100 strength (+6 VSCs) = 10d10+45 (100 damage)

Thats a massive disparity. Its really making a massive change to immortal levels.

The VSC mechanic is simple, but it's obviously broken past a certain point- so let's admit that and try to fix it, rather than just letting it be broken. The polynomial version I introduced above (admittedly not thoroughly playtested or anything yet) is also simple, requiring only an easily-calculated multiplier applied to the original base damage- not even a table lookup is necessary. Sure, Infinite Ability Scores can break the system anyway, but why let the system be broken otherwise? Why not tinker a little and fix it? Being stubborn is not a valid answer.

I have admitted the VSC mechanic is broken past a certain point, but that point is Eternal levels which are basically just there for a bit of fun.

So far the best solution I can think of is the hit point multiplier. I am open to new ideas but preferably ones that don't deal as much collateral damage to the Bestiary/Ascension unless they represent the perfect fix.

You have to weigh up the time spent making the changes with how much use they are going to be, a rewrite of the entire VSC system JUST to accomodate Eternals is self-defeating in my eyes when you can easily wallpaper over the cracks with the hit point multipliers.

As you yourself note, once Infinite Strength or Hit Points become a factor then balance is just wishful thinking.

 

[Alzrius]

I haven't been following the discussion too closely (too much math makes my head hurt ), but I don't think that just stacking VSCs to the point where they vastly eclipse hit points possessed by similar beings is too big a problem. Not with the vast array of abilities that Eternal-level beings possess.

That said, U_K, is there a way to have a reality that has a fully integated Time Lord (or High Lord) while still having sidereal beings in that multiverse? I think it'd be interesting to have such a universe that does have a Time Lord there, but also still has some overgods who more directly manage the various pantheons. Would this require that the sidereals in this case be foreign to the universe (e.g. sidereals from another universe who migrated there), or is there another way to have a full Time Lord without wiping out all of the overgods (perhaps it only consumed foreign sidereals to become one, leaving the native ones intact)?

EDIT: Does a being with the Omneity omnific power gain every portfolio in a single aspect, or do they gain every portfolio as a double portfolio?

Also, there's a slight problem with Table 4-2. The table lists Omnific abilities as being the province of Supernals. However, according to Chapter Two, Supernals consist of the Supreme Being (and the Akashic Records, which isn't a being). Does that mean that Time/High Lords can only gain omnific powers as esoteric abilities? It seems like they should have access to them normally.

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

Well, maybe the Timelord could create Avatars or Aspects, or even lesser beings with Create Life, at those power levels.

Incidentally, U_K: Initially, you were thinking about a 'Ki Effect' power, which I would imagine is similar to the Silver Surfer writeup ability. (Since you brought it up after I asked about the Silver Surfer's power) What level divine power would this be? I am imagining a "pre-charge" version, where you pay the charge times beforehand, and they increase the Damage die size one (or more, for really long charge times, like hours) steps. Do you think this would be the same divine level as the silver surfer's ability?
That, and one other thing I came across: Vengeful Effect (I think) lists that it takes 6 divine slots if used on Cosmic powers, but does it also need 36 for transient? And does this apply to the other Effect Multiplier powers?

 

[Pssthpok]

So, how long are we looking at before the next update (the 19th update)? It's been almost a proper fortnight.

Also, can we petition for some bookmarks in this thing? I mean... 160 pages is a pain to page through one-by-one.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

So, how long are we looking at before the next update (the 19th update)? It's been almost a proper fortnight.

Update probably Sunday/Monday ish.

I just got sidetracked* over the past week with things that won't make a noticeable difference to the current iteration of the Ascension pdf (like prepping all the art), but are still relevant to the IH as a whole.

*for instance today I just set up the document shell of version 6 and then got carried away revising all the Challenge Ratings, before I knew it I had redone them all to v6 specifications, but for a few problem exceptions. :\

Also, can we petition for some bookmarks in this thing? I mean... 160 pages is a pain to page through one-by-one.

Obviously it will have bookmarks. However, they won't surface until its totally finished, because everytime you do an update I would have to do the bookmarks all over again.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Alzrius dude!

That said, U_K, is there a way to have a reality that has a fully integated Time Lord (or High Lord) while still having sidereal beings in that multiverse? I think it'd be interesting to have such a universe that does have a Time Lord there, but also still has some overgods who more directly manage the various pantheons. Would this require that the sidereals in this case be foreign to the universe (e.g. sidereals from another universe who migrated there), or is there another way to have a full Time Lord without wiping out all of the overgods (perhaps it only consumed foreign sidereals to become one, leaving the native ones intact)?

As Ltheb mentioned The Time Lord could always create Avatars and Aspects of itself. There is also the possibility of visitors from other dimensions popping up.

EDIT: Does a being with the Omneity omnific power gain every portfolio in a single aspect, or do they gain every portfolio as a double portfolio?

Double.

Also, there's a slight problem with Table 4-2. The table lists Omnific abilities as being the province of Supernals. However, according to Chapter Two, Supernals consist of the Supreme Being (and the Akashic Records, which isn't a being). Does that mean that Time/High Lords can only gain omnific powers as esoteric abilities? It seems like they should have access to them normally.

Time Lords could access them normally but Demiurges couldn't.

So Eternals can't generally. No big deal making them esoteric for time lords though...unless of course this is another "Damn you krusty my level 1500 game is falling apart because of your bungling over the time lords abilities" type post.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

Incidentally, U_K: Initially, you were thinking about a 'Ki Effect' power, which I would imagine is similar to the Silver Surfer writeup ability. (Since you brought it up after I asked about the Silver Surfer's power) What level divine power would this be? I am imagining a "pre-charge" version, where you pay the charge times beforehand, and they increase the Damage die size one (or more, for really long charge times, like hours) steps. Do you think this would be the same divine level as the silver surfer's ability?
That, and one other thing I came across: Vengeful Effect (I think) lists that it takes 6 divine slots if used on Cosmic powers, but does it also need 36 for transient? And does this apply to the other Effect Multiplier powers?

I initially planned Ki [Effect] to be a mere epic feat. I can't remember what the ability actually was, I suspect I didn't get it finished to my satisfaction.

I think I had it planned to be like Lay on Hands.

I have an idea at the moment which would create a new Divine ability called Ki Effect, which would allow beings to add their Wisdom modifier to their Hit Dice for the purpose of determining effects. So I'll check that and see about adding it to a future supplement - it won't be in Ascension.

I may add some new Cosmic Powers to Ascension based on Spheres of Annihilation.

P.S. Silver Surfer would have Cosmic [Effect] not Ki Effect.

 

[Alzrius]

As Ltheb mentioned The Time Lord could always create Avatars and Aspects of itself. There is also the possibility of visitors from other dimensions popping up.

This leads me to another question: when High Lords create avatars (two divine status lower) and aspects (four divine status lower), does each "level" of High Lord count as a divine status, or not?

For example, if a Triad created an avatar, would that be "merely" a Time Lord, and it's aspect a rank II Demiurge?

Double.

Okay, that's what I thought.

Time Lords could access them normally but Demiurges couldn't.

So Eternals can't generally. No big deal making them esoteric for time lords though...unless of course this is another "Damn you krusty my level 1500 game is falling apart because of your bungling over the time lords abilities" type post.

No, that makes more sense that Time/High Lords can access omnific powers normally. I'm actually glad you've got it that way (though Table 4-2 might need to be a bit clearer in that regard).

On another note, would it adversely affect a fully-formed Time/High Lord if existing mortals or gods within itself managed to gain enough quintessence to become sidereals?