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Nonhuman noncombatants?

In my campaign, there are no Female Orcs - they reproduce by an unpleasant "budding" process after which the corpse is devoured by the ravenous "Gunks" (immature orcs). These live in the tribal "Gunk Pit" from which they occasionally escape to steal food, or for a gang of them to devour an adult they manage to get the drop on. Eventually they grow large enough to stop adults from throwing them back in the pit after an escape. Until then though the Gunks are even meaner and more vicious than the adults, who slowly mellow as their traumatic childhood fades from memory...

Unfortunately, long before an Orc gets the chance to become compasionate or thoughtful, he explodes in a bloody shower or Gunks, or is eaten alive in his sleep.

This is all taken from Orc! the roleplay game BTW.
 

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cignus_pfaccari

First Post
Kesh said:
In short, it's an annoying thing to throw at player's feet unless they already said they want to explore the moral dilemma of killing other humanoids' children.

Especially since the paladin should be able to make a reasonably low-DC Knowledge (Religion) check to know the answer, as this has undoubtedly happened before, and an organized church likely has a doctrine in place.

IME, it's usually a "Gotcha!" situation, in which I really have no interest in participating, ever, as a player or a DM.

Brad
 

Set

First Post
cignus_pfaccari said:
(blink)
It occurs to me that could work both ways. A brutal evil person can be infected with werebear lycanthropy.
Brad

That sounds many times more interesting.

There's the old saw about a decent person being possessed by a demon or evil spirit, but imagine some weak-willed member of an evil organization possessed by an archon or celestial, who causes him to sleepwalk and undermine his superiors schemes...
 

Will

First Post
It's occurred to me to wonder if there are any werebears out there who would go 'you know, the world would be better if EVERYONE was LG' and went on a biting crusade.

As I envision it, there would then be a bloody war with the OTHER LG folks (some also werebears) who think this is a terrible idea.
 

Klaus

First Post
cignus_pfaccari said:
(blink)

It occurs to me that could work both ways. A brutal evil person can be infected with werebear lycanthropy.

Brad
Mind you:

In Eberron alignments aren't set, and the alignment of a particulat strain of lycanthropy will be set by the original true lycanthrope. So a CE werebear will produce only CE afflicted werebears, whereas a LG werewolf will only produce LG werewolves.

Hellcow can give you more on that.
 

HeavenShallBurn

First Post
Hellcow said:
While I find this view of neutrality to be broad to the extent of being useless. If you look to Eberron, it is a world that has GOOD and EVIL with capital letters. You have the Lords of Dust, physical embodiments of malefic ideals. You have the living nightmares of the Quori, and the walking terrors of the Daelkyr. Lycanthropy is terrifying because it can turn even the purest man into a vicious murderer. Among humans you have brutal soldiers of the Emerald Claw and crazed killers serving the Mockery or the Dragon Below, to name but a few. If you WANT a clear, black-and-white struggle between Good and Evil, you can have that in Eberron; after all, that's an important part of many pulp stories.

However, one of the key goals of Eberron was to support a broader range of stories than that - to allow the noir as well as the pulp. Furthermore, it was designed to take into account the existence and use of low-level magic. Which made it vitally important in my view that detect evil NOT be the one true tool that solves every problem. If you rule that only the most despicable, vile creatures or criminals actually possess evil alignments, you OUGHT to see societies arise in which paladins are constantly scanning for evil and imprisoning or eliminating those they find. If there's no possibility of an evil person doing good, or of being redeemable, and you had a concrete means of detecting these ruthless vile people at your disposal, why WOULDN'T you automatically use it? And how do you tell your murder mystery if detect evil will automatically tell you which of your ten suspects is evil... or that if it pings on two people, you might as well kill both of them?

Eberron's approach doesn't weaken the horror of true, pure evil. But it makes evil a SPECTRUM... and says that detect evil is a blunt tool that won't tell you where your target lies on that spectrum. I liken it to Star Wars, where Yoda can look at Luke and say "There is much anger in that one." It tells you that someone has the POTENTIAL for darkness, but it doesn't tell you if they've ever indulged it, or how far they'll go. It's a warning, a sign that the person you're dealing with COULD be a ruthless baby-killer - but there's no proof that he is.

As for the orcs, to me it's all a question of whether you accept the idea of pure, genetic evil. In Eberron, certain creatures ARE manifestations of evil. A fiend isn't just an alien creature that's decided to be evil; its alignment defines its existence, and if the alignment changed I'd expect the creature to physically transform to reflect it (as is the case with Radiant Idols, which have different stats than the angels they once were). In Eberron, the curse of lycanthropy sets an alignment, and if you are bitten by an evil 'thrope and surrender to the curse, you become not just evil but a vicious killer who revels in bloodshed. If you say that orcs fall into this category - that pure capital-E Evil runs through their blood and that every orc will unquestionably grow to rape and murder, than I think killing orc children is perfectly acceptable - because at this point they are monsters in every sense of the word, no different from demons. In Eberron, they're nothing like this. Orcs are sentient humanoids, nothing more, nothing less. They have different physical capabilities than humans. They have developed significantly different cultures than the primary human cultures. But they aren't INHERENTLY evil any more than elves are inherently chaotic good.

If all you're looking for from D&D is "I want to kill evil people and not have to think whether it's the right thing", hey, you can even do that in Eberron, using any of the groups I described above. And hey, if the orcs you meet are sprouting tongueworms and murdering babies for Khyber or wearing the flayed skins of human peasants, it doesn't matter that orcs as a SPECIES aren't inherently evil - these are people you need to stop. But for me, making both good and evil spectrums in their own right - as opposed to the extremely narrow end points on a spectrum that's 90% "neutral" - provides far more opportunity for mystery, suspense, and depth of story than "Everything that detects as evil deserves to die."
I never said you didn't have absolute GOOD or EVIL, we just have a different view on the nature of alignments and neutrality. I generally see putting the wide spectrum approach as weakening the nature of GOOD and EVIL by sharing the denominator but not exhibiting the traits of such moral absolutes. It's an entirely valid point of view and a necessary design tool for the noir elements of Eberron. Those are elements I've never been big on, I'm glad you provide them for those with tastes for them. It's just not for me.

There is one misconception that springs in almost constantly at this point. The idea that for some reason it's not proper to slay Neutral enemy noncombatants only Evil enemy noncombatants. I place Good and Evil as extreme end segments of a primarily neutral behavior set which means Good will kill Evil on sight after all they're the opposite poles. But it doesn't follow Neutral is unwilling to deal with Evil, they're not going to attack until this particular Evil looks to be bothering or about to bother Them in Particular. Similarly Neutral wouldn't necessarily have any compunction about killing other Neutral creatures, an enemy is an enemy after all whatever their alignment. Good societies don't arise because Good is like Evil an extreme, few people end up there and will be resisted as strongly as Evil because of how far they deviate from the largely neutral habits of Humanoids.
 

cignus_pfaccari

First Post
Klaus said:
Mind you:

In Eberron alignments aren't set, and the alignment of a particulat strain of lycanthropy will be set by the original true lycanthrope. So a CE werebear will produce only CE afflicted werebears, whereas a LG werewolf will only produce LG werewolves.

I wasn't *just* referring to Eberron...though I could swear I remember werebears being called out as an example of "just because they turn someone good doesn't mean they're not disease bearing abominations that need eradication."

The point remains, though. An LG* (lycanthrope) could go to town and forcibly redeem various evil SoBs that it felt needed redemption (especially ones with caster levels...oh, that'd be rude, animal HD and level adjustment on a caster?). They'd still be meat for the Silver Flame, of course, but that might be an interesting moral dilemma. Certainly more interesting than the "paladin vs orc babies" one.

Brad

* - LG doesn't mean he can't be a punk.
 
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