Off to War - canceled

[Fangor the Fierce]

I say let be what he wants, enter the game, we kill him off for being a 'monster' or for some obscure reason, and then he starts over! Yes - that was a joke!

It seems that you want the game to allow you to play whatever you want, as you like 'tough' concepts. I say think of it this way: If you are so intent on playing things that are a challenge for you, that don't fit the 'norm', then why not adhere to the rules everyone else has done with so far, and play a human, with human blood, and within the current system? Seems to me that adhering to THAT type of character would be the most challenging for you, possibly your first time in doing so as well. 4+ pages of reading from your character concepts seems to lean that way..

Hell, why not even make him an idiot, or 'challenged' and make him THINK he has giant blood, or fey heritage, or gnoll lineage.

 

[Zerith]

Well, I'm about to ramble, you are so warned

None human president has been reached already; we've had a half elf PC, both in stats and in fluff :/

In regards to simply making him think he is decedent from something exotic, he does not really care about his basically unknown ancestors; if they were important enough to know about he would have heard songs of them by now.
As for making him stupid: one that makes him stereo typical and two it invites meta gaming on my part.
I might see an intelligent solution to a problem that my character should not be able 'see' do to his sub par Int score, acting on this once in a great while is one thing, but if my character ends up reliably solving puzzles, or finding the clue that ends up solving them, it kind of breaks the illusion of "what would my character do" and makes it "what would I do?" thus spoiling it.
I could do it, but it would take a lot of mental discipline on my part... and there’s the rub.


As for the Gnoll bit, their an example of something that ends up his general size: he is a PC and a generic PC crushes a Generic NPC of a comparable size/race, look at CR and it’s the theme, and is close to/on par with a named NPC across the board, possibly with a light advantage if there in the same CR as the PC's level(baring things like dragons were the inverse is true)

So without the use of feats, or other things that augment size/hight:
Think of a humanoid race with an average build, 5-6’ tall with a racial Str of +4 or more…
Think of a humanoid race with an average build, 7-8’ tall with a racial Str of +2 or less…
I can’t think of one for either, I’m not an expert though so there could be many, but I see a natural consensus in DnD that bigger means higher str, and con by default. Might find the odd thing that throws this in the wind, but it’s not the norm.

As a 'strait' human he can edge out a full on generic, non-warrior, Gholl in strength, if he takes a hit elsewhere, an elite one or one that is simply got a Joe smoe warrior, is stronger than him, and a bare-bones named Gnoll would over shadow him in what should be his greatest strengths even though it would make sense that he should be able go toe to toe with one in raw brawn, maybe not beat one, but at least go toe to toe with it as a real threat that needs to be dealt with as opposed to a weakling that needs to be pushed aside.
[Side note, given the generic human men at arms stats HM is using, as a base, a Gnoll warrior would be stomping in at about 19 Str, 13, Dex 18, Con, 6 int, 15 Wis and 6 Cha per standard to maintain relative CR ; ]

Also, as I've said before, I take enjoyment from characters that are different from me, because the chalange me to think from another point of view: naturally a bit of my personality bleeds though, but that is just part of Role playing. Honestly, I was just going to dust off Alexander at one point, the misadventure with the epic foobar in it never finished so in retrospect it can basically just be written off, with perhaps a footnote or two addressed latter on at his expense to make him cringe. This was, if I recall right, given a resounding no; he meet everything you guys wanted though :/
The side note to this is that I don't want to make a character similar to him again in the same RP, so yeah.

I've also thought of having him get a feat, sculpt self, and then basically buy large size with EXP, but doing it that way basically means he can be shrunk back down by a dispel check opposed by a CL of 1, and that seems very, very random and unfitting of the campaign would at large. Meanwhile, in this low fantasy campaign, we have mages, alright, its still a fantasy campaign after all; a guy who works for a dragon, and it seems to be personally active in the RP's greater plot and passably a few more dragons if what I skimmed through is right; and more than likely a few other instances of things that aren't exactly low fantasy/rules as initially written*. Meanwhile, you guys are saying a character that is simply naturally, if majorly, bigger and bulkier is a no no?
[*I would list the half elf here, but the character is interesting enough as the trigger to the war to justify it]

Character wise he would still be a human, just far bigger then then normal, as it stands this part is happening regardless and no one has chimed in about it one way or another, so the RP side of this is not the issue anyone is making at all; the issue is the skeleton of stats I’m hanging the character on. I want the character to be, blatantly, stronger than normal, just as he is blatantly larger than normal, he is well built and can’t stand up in an average house without hitting his head I would think there would be a equal difference between what he and the average man can lift. (As such his ‘normal’ stance is much shorter than his full height out of habit).
This is not even really an issue of the character being stronger than his pears, we have characters above level 6: you just can’t compare a +4 net stat gain to being 3 levels, or more, behind.

The real issue is: should the extra-large character be extra-strong? And I’d love to see an argument for no beyond “the race isn’t listed in this big list as human” yet in the end it’s HM’s RP, his world, and his choice and I’ll abide by it with either verdict.

 

[Dragonwriter]

So, general vote; yes or no on bloodline?

No from me. Bloodlines are a mess. Bringing in those poorly-written rules would be a mistake.

part of the character concept is he can use just about any weapon with ease, if he has dedicated himself to one weapon it means others are harder for him to use: changing from weapon to weapon without hesitation is something he likes to do, if he has a +3 to great swords only he does not want to use his other weapons anymore, dos he?

Before I launch into my own diatribes, I’ll offer a piece of assistance with this, as such a matter is poorly supported in the Core rules. Tome of Battle offered a class with a feature called Weapon Aptitude. It allowed a character to change their weapon-specific feats with an hour of practice with a new weapon. Not switching easily at the drop of a hat, but closer than anything else in the books.

General issues being spoken here is that Fey generally seems out of place, I’m going too high fantasy (yet again!) and I should avoid using things akin to templates, like Bloodline levels.

High fantasy isn’t the issue. Going too far afield with your concept and mechanical execution is the problem.

I've been kind of hesitant to ask this, given the previous race restrictions and the +1 LA, but I've been pondering the idea of making the character a Goliath in stats only (possibly changing monstrous humanoid to humanoid, but I’m also then tempted to take the Goliath barbarian rage variant, and if it’s combined with enlarge person it could lead to a huge sized PC >_<
Then again it could be ruled the two don’t stack )

The inability to be targeted with Enlarge Person is one of the balancing factors of the Goliath. Removing that restriction increases its power level significantly. Incidentally, Monkey Grip and anything resembling Powerful Build don’t stack (3.5 FAQ , page 51).

Addon: found the regional feat "Jotunbrud" from Races of Faerun, going to run it if as well if the Goliath thing dos not work out :3

Congratulations on finding yet another stupidly-powerful feat. And this time, it’s even setting-specific!

I try to make the character around the concept, not the other way around,

And you go out of the established rules to try to make the character as absurdly powerful as possible. Stop going to CharOp boards.

As for making a supper strong human with deficits in some areas, kinda why I want to use Goliath stats, he would have a strength score in line with what I think he should have, namely he would be as strong as a 'stronger then average Gnoll'(IE, any Gnoll speced as a warrior or the like), and their something in his weight/size bracket. meanwhile he would have a LA that gives him other deficits. its not like he would be getting something for nothing.
You can't tell me you can look at a Goliath's stats and not think 'large'

The average gnoll is STR 15. You can outdo that with the point-buy without bringing in extra material and mucking things up. Work within the established confines and politely ask for extra material. Don’t go rampaging about with “Ooh, shiny new splatbook here! Web enhancement there!” and then beg for this stuff to be included, just because you found it and want it to make a super-charged character.

Well, I'm about to ramble, you are so warned

None human president has been reached already; we've had a half elf PC, both in stats and in fluff :/

And that character was discussed with HM before being made and wasn’t involving all this extraneous insanity.

As for making him stupid: one that makes him stereo typical and two it invites meta gaming on my part.
<snip>
I could do it, but it would take a lot of mental discipline on my part... and there’s the rub.

Stereotypes exist for a reason. They can serve as an easy entry point and foundation. And it rather seems like you could use some exercise with mental discipline. It isn’t hard to ignore a possible clue. Other players in other games do it all them time.

So without the use of feats, or other things that augment size/hight:
Think of a humanoid race with an average build, 5-6’ tall with a racial Str of +4 or more…
Think of a humanoid race with an average build, 7-8’ tall with a racial Str of +2 or less…
I can’t think of one for either, I’m not an expert though so there could be many, but I see a natural consensus in DnD that bigger means higher str, and con by default. Might find the odd thing that throws this in the wind, but it’s not the norm.

Yeah. And? Use your character creation points to start with a higher STR. A normal (non-hero) human’s STR is, at best, 13. A gnoll (your apparent measuring stick, for some reason) is STR 15. Both are easily surpassed with the points you have at your disposal. Quit trying to slide in things beyond the scope of the presented framework.

This was, if I recall right, given a resounding no; he meet everything you guys wanted though :/

Mechanically, sort of. He could be a face. But his personality was so incredibly grating that no one could stand him. There was the issue. And from the way you spoke, it seemed like there would be little to no character growth from beyond “spoiled brat having to face tough situations.”

Meanwhile, you guys are saying a character that is simply naturally, if majorly, bigger and bulkier is a no no?

Because of the mechanical workings of the character. You have methods to make your PC stronger than most people, but you refuse to be content with those methods. Instead, you search for ways to scrape out every little advantage and try to press new materials into the campaign.

the issue is the skeleton of stats I’m hanging the character on. I want the character to be, blatantly, stronger than normal, just as he is blatantly larger than normal

I believe I’ve described the “normal” strength of people already. You have ways to do this without dredging up more splatbooks.

This is not even really an issue of the character being stronger than his pears, we have characters above level 6: you just can’t compare a +4 net stat gain to being 3 levels, or more, behind.

And your character won’t be joining straight in with the higher level ones. And if you stick with the campaign like us advanced players have, you’ll even up with us eventually. Hell, with HM being so much more generous with XP over time, you’ll probably catch us without too much time or hassle.

The real issue is: should the extra-large character be extra-strong?

Extra strong is completely possible without delving into LA races, SLAs, and Bloodlines. Work with the tools you have instead of trying to build a new toolbox.

 

[Sugar_Silk]

This is my favorite part:

Honestly, I was just going to dust off Alexander at one point... he meet everything you guys wanted though :/
The side note to this is that I don't want to make a character similar to him again in the same RP, so yeah.

As if the one race limitation forces you into anything less than a BILLION freaking possibilities.

Also, as I've said before, I take enjoyment from characters that are different from me, because the chalange me to think from another point of view: naturally a bit of my personality bleeds though, but that is just part of Role playing.

There are many different points of view among humans. Maybe play as a slave? Or an amputee? Maybe you're blind! Play an old man! Play a noble lady! Shiftless gambler! Fallen priest! All these examples are angles I'm sure are very different from your daily life.

Take away exotic physical characteristics, and all the time spent describing your ears or your tail or whatever, and I bet you'll find all the characters you've played have exactly the same personality. I accuse you of over-reliance on racial gimmicks. I question your ability to play an interesting human character, and I challenge you to prove me wrong.

 

[Zerith]

And that closes them off by vote unless every other active RPer comes in and starts saying adds them
__

Before I launch into my own diatribes, I’ll offer a piece of assistance with this, as such a matter is poorly supported in the Core rules. Tome of Battle offered a class with a feature called Weapon Aptitude. It allowed a character to change their weapon-specific feats with an hour of practice with a new weapon. Not switching easily at the drop of a hat, but closer than anything else in the books.

I’ll look into that class from ToB :3
__

High fantasy isn’t the issue. Going too far afield with your concept and mechanical execution is the problem.

… Yeah… ^_^;
__
I’ll agree there, possibly just say he is simply immune to EP/RP, I just don’t want to give him immunities a human should not (hold person for example)
__

The inability to be targeted with Enlarge Person is one of the balancing factors of the Goliath. Removing that restriction increases its power level significantly. Incidentally, Monkey Grip and anything resembling Powerful Build don’t stack

I never intended to take it along with powerful build, I was planning on taking it, along with the Jotunbrud feat, in place there of.He is supposed to be big; he is not supposed to be Cloud.

__

Congratulations on finding yet another stupidly-powerful feat. And this time, it’s even setting-specific!

As is fleet of foot (+10’ speed), never been an issue with fleet of foot so I’ve just been figuring it was all right to use them unless told otherwise at character creation.
__

Yeah. And? Use your character creation points to start with a higher STR. A normal (non-hero) human’s STR is, at best, 13. A gnoll (your apparent measuring stick, for some reason) is STR 15. Both are easily surpassed with the points you have at your disposal. Quit trying to slide in things beyond the scope of the presented framework.

In this RP, the averages are higher than normal, all I meant to do was apply the Gnoll racial stat modifiers to the stats HM supplied for an average fighting man but I rushed andyeah…

Men at Arms:
medium humaniod (human)
Hit Dice: 1d8+5 (9 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares)
Armor Class: 17 (+4 scalemail, +2 heavy wooden shield, +1 Dex), touch 11, flat-footed 16
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+3
Attack: +4 melee (1d8+2 martial weapon)
Full Attack: +4 melee (1d8+2 martial weapon)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: none
Special Qualities: none
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +1, Will +1
Abilities: Str 15, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8
Skills: Profession(guard) +3, Handle Animal +5, Intimidate +3
Feats: Toughness, Weapon Focus (varies for each)
Environment: any
Organization: group 10-50
Challenge Rating: 1/2
Treasure: none
Alignment: any
Advancement: by class

Meanwhile a stock CR ½ human warrior is 13 Str, 11 Dex, 12 Con, 10 Int, 9 Wis and 8 Cha, HM’s has a +5 net modifier advantage.

I did not pull them the gnoll stats out of my ass, but yeah I had to do something right then so I rushed and did not proof read it, thought it looked high, but oh well ^_^;
It should have been:
Str 19, Dex 13, Con 16, int 8, 12 Wis and 6 Cha

The Str is still high as heck, and we’re talking about a run of the mill Gnoll warrior, a named Gnoll could reach 22, 23 with two class levels
__

Mechanically, sort of. He could be a face. But his personality was so incredibly grating that no one could stand him. There was the issue. And from the way you spoke, it seemed like there would be little to no character growth from beyond “spoiled brat having to face tough situations.”

I was mainly frustrated because I twisted his character into that :/
__

Because of the mechanical workings of the character. You have methods to make your PC stronger than most people, but you refuse to be content with those methods. Instead, you search for ways to scrape out every little advantage and try to press new materials into the campaign.

If I simply wanted to make an overpowered/gimmicky character using Defensive throw, he would have maxed Str and Dex, he would have a heavy shield, a one handed trip weapon, or no weapon at all, and as heavy of armor as he could without breaking the armor’s Dex bonus cap, so that he could get off trip attempts left right and center to his Opponent. A high AC is key for getting the optimum use out of Defensive throw, at this point his AC won’t break 18 regardless of what happens, and that is with dodge. Also it gets worse with rage, but it could have been made stronger with frenzy, normal rage fits the character beter so that’s what he uses. There is also the issue of: its useless if the chosen opponent dos not take the bait or if he is swarmed. If can make for an exceptional dullest, but by large it’s not a one all be all.
The character’s ability to make trip attacks in general is powerful, as a strait human, the only thing that notes the character as an above average PC tripper would be Jotunbrud, but a character can get it and improved trip at level 1 without any house rule trades :/

Quick draw is handy for a tripper but it’s not needed either, you can drop your trip weapon and then draw a spare another one

Then we have Monkey grip… this feat is not all that and a bag of chips, an exotic weapon feat is generally better all-around if you’re ok with the loss of versatility, as you can get the same dice damage size increase, but also keep your to attack modifier intact, and the -2 is basically a loss of 2 feats, so when its used you’r basically getting -1 feats worth. Highly optimized when you can just take power attack and trade 2 attack for 4 damage, a great sword with monkey grip and you’re looking at an extra 1d6, or 3.5 damage, and you can turn it off whenever needed or power it up when you know you’re still going to hit.
The only advantage to it over Power attack is you can use it to increase the attack power of light weapons, but you can’t use it on offhand weapons so it’s a moot point, you just getting a light weapon with the damage of a 1 handed weapon and a -2 to attack that you can’t duel wield, meanwhile most weapons won’t get the +1d6 that a great sword dos.
It is a lack luster feat that is more fluffy then anything unless your already at large size or larger.
Then there is the added bonus of paying more for weapons and having them be real heavy, given my character is going to be using a good few, this is a real issue for my character, with normal weighted gear he is 16lb from his max light weight without something to augment his max weight…

I’ve got to admit tough, combat reflexes, improved trip, and a reach trip weapon is nice, with Jotunbrud it is very powerful as he can just trip things when they move in his extended AoOs, but again it’s something achievable by level 3 without extraordinary means.

Oh yeah, the 14 Int and 12 Cha is very optimized for a melee monster…
__

Stereotypes exist for a reason. They can serve as an easy entry point and foundation. And it rather seems like you could use some exercise with mental discipline. It isn’t hard to ignore a possible clue. Other players in other games do it all them time.

I shall now quote super kami guru on a related subject not unrelated to exercise: “Oh ___! Natural light!”
But seriously, if the RP was more story light, possibly, but big and stupid comes in two basic flavors: smash everything and peaceful giant and I don’t really care to RP either for a prolonged period,

__

Extra strong is completely possible without delving into LA races, SLAs, and Bloodlines. Work with the tools you have instead of trying to build a new toolbox.

Yep, in fact he will be dealing with lower level ones, and while its easier for him to use defensive throw on weaker enemies, if they have brains they swarm him while the one he is paying attention to just defends itself and it’s negated anyways :3
__

Extra strong is completely possible without delving into LA races, SLAs, and Bloodlines. Work with the tools you have instead of trying to build a new toolbox.

But I like building things :3
__

And now for something I should have asked HM about earlier!
Something that fits with the character and is not meta at all!

*Doomfuly gleeful face of joyness!*

Oh Holy Man!



Could I make a trade to increase the character’s affective size in regards to his carrying Capacity?
It would be equivalent to a 5 point increase in strength in this regard in case you were wondering :3
(I feel kind of stupid for not asking about this earlier since it fits so dang well and lets him show off raw brawn :/)
__

Addonith!

Just noticed SS's post....

So, it is on!
Though making the character blind, mute or crippled is a similar crutch, Hmm, have not used my Drunken Cleric in a years.... well, since I did WoW... years and years really, time to figure out how to work with spells chosen at the dawn :3

__

The gerbal is running, the wheel is flying backwards and we might end up with a pally or a healer instead.

 

[Sugar_Silk]

I am so lost.

I can't keep up with all the contradictory statements, misspellings, circular logic, cliche's, and what I'll safely assume are quotes from obscure anime.

Are you still pushing for mods to Thorkel, or are you making a paladin now? Remember that I said play an interesting human, not just pointlessly construct one.

 

[Zerith]

Yes, That.

But seriously, I Loath playing: generic PC #5479 .
Yet thinking about it now, I've never played a cleric/pally, and they have to deal with treating their enemies with Mercy, even when the know the one they show quarter to can betray their trust and might very well have earned a brutal death; their compelled by their nature to spare the life of the wicked, once they surrender, even though they know doing so might place the innocent, that their oath bound to protect, at needless risk.

It seems like an interesting angle: so at this point I'm leaning towards it.
Honestly, I'm still open to Thorkell, but I'm also open to this newly forming character and it seems like the new one can get accepted with less hair splinting

 

[Dragonwriter]

But seriously, I Loath playing: generic PC

The not-yet-created PC is only generic because you insist it is so. Personality quirks are what make one person truly different from another.

Just make a character from CORE rules and give them a few interesting personality quirks. Quit delving for obscure, pointless, power-hungry extra material.

 

[Zerith]

... So, I say I'm going to make a cleric, a pally, or a Healer and one of the first things you think of is that I'm going to make it over powered :/
I was thinking about some feats from the book of exulted deeds(I’m not planning on picking up Vow of Poverty though) and maybe a little content from UA(I'm just wondering if he should pick up nimbus of light at creation or level 6)

Much latter on, at level 8 at the soonest (he will be using human paragon for a long sword ;3), I'm also pondering the prospect of having the character pick up geomancer(would likely have him pick up sorcerer with utility/buffing spells to qualify) and then sub out some drift affects for comparable changes that befit an angelic theme, the level one shifts for things like golden irises and perhaps tiny dove wings (that would be under his clothing all the time anyways) for example, but we’re talking more than likely a RL year or more before this comes up as a real possibility, he might just end up simply progressing as cleric.
[No celestial blood shenanigans here, just a favored holy servant... not running favored soul though, fyi :3]

As for the character himself, he was never going to be generic in personality.
He will be a ‘bit’ eccentric and naïve as to the workings of the world, good natured, and innocent with a bit of bashfulness among other traits. (He can also get a bit preachy...) I think he and Darling would be able to play off each other rather well.
Meanwhile the character I’m planning also thinks true evil is none existent and thus despises the act of killing; he understands it fully, but at the same time he simply can’t justify it. (yep, he will have Subduing Strike :3)
__

Addon: I think I might see about the feats in CD as well now that I think about it ^_^

 

[Dragonwriter]

... So, I say I'm going to make a cleric, a pally, or a Healer and one of the first things you think of is that I'm going to make it over powered :/

Because of your track record, yes. Look at all the stuff you dragged out for your proposed characters -- the stuff that has kept you from getting into the game. Stop hunting down extra feats and PrCs, and just make a mechanically-simple Core character with some personality quirks to make them interesting. With all your talk of wanting to have a "challenging character," it seems like this would be your greatest challenge yet.

And I feel the need to point out, when you dredged up the Man at Arms example... That is not an average person. That is a professional warrior, and he is built with the Elite Array. He should also actually be CR 1 due to the stat increases. Don't use Elite Array NPCs as your baseline. And even so, your STR could have easily surpassed them.