D&D General One thing I hate about the Sorcerer

[FrozenNorth]

Can you provide an example of a mundane character in fiction that can plausibly stand up to 10th level + threats without supernatural aid? If not, how can that specific thing really be a class fantasy?

Batman
King Arthur
Ulysses from the Odyssey
Green Arrow
Beowulf

Edit. Krillin

 

[TwoSix]

Sure seems like you do...

Of course, in your own game you can do what you want.

And in your own game, you can house rule that fantasy humans have the same capabilities as Earth humans.

The only "truth" of a fictional setting is our headcanon.

 

[CreamCloud0]

The Internet ate my well crafted response, so I'll just sum it up here:

You can't be a mundane hero in a game where 80% of your allies and enemies are not mundane. Eventually, you fall behind. And when you do, you start to rely on magic as a crutch. There is functionally little difference with a fighter who has a flame tongue sword, adamantine armor, and boots of flying and a dragon knight who has hardened scales, coats his blade in dragonfire, and manifests wings except the former was gotten out of a box of DM charity and the latter is a part of the characters identity and abilities. There is no mundane fighter, only one who gets his power in loot boxes.

I'd rather that power be part of the class and since weakening casters is out of the question, let's give the warrior classes what they need to survive. And if that means all farmboys end up the heirs to a mystic tradition of magic knights, I can live with that.

but that difference is still important to a non-insignificant amount of people, and there's nothing stopping the designers putting in the rules 'at 5th level your fighter gets to pick a magic item of X rarity for your character', it's basically already a feature of the artificer even if they have the justification they're making it themselves, i get that some people might not like magic items appearing out of the ether simply because you reached X level but it's better than being subject to GM charity, say your sword was empowered by the stories told of your fighter turning into an icebrand, that your shield evolved from being soaked in the blood of 1000 slain monsters turning it into a +1, the ambient magic was absorbed into your boots and they turned into boots of flying.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Tyranny of the unpopular, then? Sounds worse.

No tyranny here. Everyone can do what they want in their own game, but that doesn't change what the says (or doesn't say).

 

[Micah Sweet]

Does it matter? If I say it comes from the positive plane, that doesn’t work in settings that don’t have a positive plane. Leave it open, let each table decide.

The metaphysics of spellcasting don’t have to be set down to play the game, and they certainly don’t have to be set down for all settings in the PHB.

Sure, you can have it work however you want in your own game. What you can't do is tell other people what the game is about without clear proof in the text.

 

[FrogReaver]

but that difference is still important to a non-insignificant amount of people, and there's nothing stopping the designers putting in the rules 'at 5th level your fighter gets to pick a magic item of X rarity for your character', it's basically already a feature of the artificer even if they have the justification they're making it themselves, i get that some people might not like magic items appearing out of the ether simply because you reached X level but it's better than being subject to GM charity, say your sword was empowered by the stories told of your fighter turning into an icebrand, that your shield evolved from being soaked in the blood of 1000 slain monsters turning it into a +1, the ambient magic was absorbed into your boots and they turned into boots of flying.

Conceptually there is a vast chasm between - ‘I make my own magic item’ and ‘DM is required to give me X magic item’.

What you suggest is a valid solution so long on one can stomach the ramifications. A lot cannot.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I can see why you would want to do it, I just don’t see Ex and Su enabling this sort of play.

Take your example. There isn’t a fighter ability that permits you to leap 40’ and attack. You could fall back on the Jumping rules to argue that with a sufficiently high Athletics check, you should be able to make a 40’ leap. But the Jumping rules apply to everyone, so they are tagged Mundane.

So either way, it just comes down to the DM. Meanwhile, at the next table over, the player’s fighter is Mr. Mundane (by which I mean, he’s just a regular farmboy who’s strong and good at wielding a scythe), but has no trouble clearing the leap because D&D is a game of heroic fantasy. That’s what it says right on the cover and several times in the book.

So at that other table, they're using house rules that let you jump 40 feet and attack without supernatural aid?

 

[Shardstone]

WotC releases so many spells and magical feats that I don't think they believe catering to the "low-magic crowd" is profitable at all. When's the last time we got some even slightly significant full martial stuff? Even in OD&D we just get weapon masteries and then some fun ways to use your attack action differently for martial classes; other than that, it's more spells, more magical subclasses, more magic items.

So, I don't think it matters if people can stomach a full-magic D&D, because we already have one.

 

[Micah Sweet]

The Internet ate my well crafted response, so I'll just sum it up here:

You can't be a mundane hero in a game where 80% of your allies and enemies are not mundane. Eventually, you fall behind. And when you do, you start to rely on magic as a crutch. There is functionally little difference with a fighter who has a flame tongue sword, adamantine armor, and boots of flying and a dragon knight who has hardened scales, coats his blade in dragonfire, and manifests wings except the former was gotten out of a box of DM charity and the latter is a part of the characters identity and abilities. There is no mundane fighter, only one who gets his power in loot boxes.

I'd rather that power be part of the class and since weakening casters is out of the question, let's give the warrior classes what they need to survive. And if that means all farmboys end up the heirs to a mystic tradition of magic knights, I can live with that.

I cannot. I don't want to play that game.

 

[Micah Sweet]

The point is that wizards can cast magic because the PHB says they can cast magic is an equally circular argument. You are applying a different standard to certain classes rather than others.

Yeah, the standard of, "Does the book say they use supernatural forces, or not?" That doesn't seem unfair to me.