[ooc] gng - nameless [4/4]

[doghead]

Is the landcarl concept a stationary one (i.e., tied to the land)? Is it a landowning one, or does the carl merely hold the land for the owner? --Landowner sounds good to me, but I was thinking less stationary and more traveling.

Small changes made to character notes above.

Just thinking aloud here.

I saw them as being fairly independant. The typical Landcarl is a more mature hunter or forester who has proven himself to be both knowledgeable about the land and as well as worthy of trust. However, a good number are also younger men who older Landcarls have apprenticed or taken on to assist them.

They are not landowners, or at least, they may own some land, but not the whole area that they are responsible for. That is, the land of the lord or whatever. Nor do they really 'hold' it. Rather, they monitor and protect - medieval Environmental Protection Agency officers in a way.

Agreements can vary, from payment and property to the right to hunt the land as they need and keep what profits they make from through the exersise of their resoponsibilities. They may work individually or cover larger areas in partnership with others. But the territories covered are usually big enough to mean that they need to spend a fair amount of time living in the wilds. A Landcarl who spends evey night at home in bed is probably not doing his job.

Landcarls generally revere Alirrian. The most devoted, or so inclined, may be members of Nature’s Tenders: The Tenders worship Alirria as goddess of nature. They encourage harmony with nature. Many wander the wilds, offering the goddess’s aid to her creations. Others live in city-states, helping the people there to live peaceably with nature. Tenders are busiest during planting seasons, when every farmer around seeks their blessings. Druids and Rangers often belong to this sect. (from page one)

Some 'Landcarls' move around, spending no more than a few years in one place (although they are not officially Landcarls while without a commission). They tend to gravitate to area suffering from some form of disruption - incursions or raids by goblins or orgres perhaps.

Let me know what you think. It open for input.

 

[doghead]

Can I even do that 2nd lvl in sneak attack? Would I have to be lvl 3 or something? Just wondering... :\

You can do it at Level 2. Thats the idea behind the sysytem - you are not tied to a single common progression of abilities etc.

Sneak attack is one of those abilities that makes me a tad nervous (along with Rage and Wild shape). Will a level 4 character with sneak attack +8 be a game breaker? There may have to be some toning down of some of the abilities in the future. But for the moment we'll see how it goes.

BTW, Sneak Attack +4 is a progression feat, so it costs [3 CP]. Otherwise the build look fine. I havn't checked the character sheet yet, I'll get back to it tonight.

 

[Temujin]

So how does this chooseing 'class' feats work... suppose I wanted the barbarians DR 1/- or the Monks Diamond Soul ability... I could make a really scary lvl 2 character with some of those abilities...

 

[doghead]

So how does this chooseing 'class' feats work... suppose I wanted the barbarians DR 1/- or the Monks Diamond Soul ability... I could make a really scary lvl 2 character with some of those abilities...

Humm, I hadn't really thought about people asking to take 13th level abilities. OK. The simple answer is DM fiat.

The longer answer is that it will be a matter of discussion.

In the case of the Diamond Soul ability, it seems to be a Mind/Body/Soul progression starting with Still Mind. Each one would be the prereq for the next. The progression would be - Still Mind [5], Purity of Body [3], Wholeness of Body [3], Diamond Body [3], Diamond Soul [3], Timeless Body [3], Empty Body [3], Perfect Self [3]. Technically, if you poured all of your CP points into it, you could get to Perfect Self by Level 4. Whoa! Its at this point I would point out that there are no eastern mystical monks in this setting. OK. Not really.

Someone suggested that all class ability feats should cost 4 CP to progress, an idea that is gaining merit. It does seem a little more balanced to make class based ability and feat progressions require 4 CP (rather than the original 3CP). Entry and general feat progressions costs [3CP] are the same.

I think that I would limit taking thematically linked class based abilities to once per level.
* ie progression: Rage 3/day [4], Rage 4/day [4] is not possible.
But you could take two different class based abilities in the same level.
* ie progression: Rage 3/day [4], progression: Trapsense +3 [4] is OK.
But it would burn all your CPs.


Thoughts, objections, questions?

 

[Maerdwyn]

Thoughts, objections, questions?

1)A couple possible approaches, but I think 4cp/class ability is the simplest, and ltimately probably the best. Might like to chat further with you about the bard progression however (With Temujin playing a sneak attack-type roguish character, I'm leaning more toward a bard-like route, but 13 skill points to get up to inspire courage seems a bit daunting. )

2)Although it would be much more work for you, you could also turn the class abilities into true feats, with pre-reqs of bab, ability scores, other feats, etc. Sure you could spend all the points necessary to get to Perfect Self by 4th level, but only if you don't spend enough points to also get to the Bab+10 that you also need to take the feat. Etc.

3)Different costs could apply to different ablities. A level of Priest spell casting would cost more than, say, a level of paladin spell casting. Also a lot of work, and maybe playtesting.

4)A limited version of 3: Abilities which are a true progression (Rage 3/day from 2/day; Diamond soul from Diamond Body - one per level, as you suggested above) cost 3 and have the previous abilities as prereqs. New abilities which are in the class progression (quivering palm) cost 4 and still require the previous class abilities as prereqs.

 

[Temujin]

Here's my finished character! Let me know if there are any problems with it.

Owen Merrick
Human Male 1
Concept: scoundrel/streetrat

Height: 5'06"
Weight: 158 lbs
Eyes: brown
Hair: brown (straggly, thick, short)
Age: 24

Initiative: +2 [+2 Dex]
Speed: 30 ft.
Defense: +5 [+3 BDB, +2 DEX, +0 Size, +0 Shield]
Soak: +6 [+2 Con, +0 Size, +2 Armour, +0 Natural Armour +2 Toughness]
BAB: +1

* melee +3 Dagger (1d4+2, 19-20/x2)
* melee +3 Quarterstaff (1d6+2, x2)
* ranged +3 Dagger (1d4+2, 19-20/x2, 10 ft.)

Full Attack: Dagger/Dagger +1/+1 (1d4+2/1d4+2, 19-20/x2) or Quarterstaff +1/+1 (1d6+2/1d6+2, x2)

Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Sneak Attack +4
Special Qualities: Human traits

Saves: Fortitude 2/+4, Reflex 3/+5, Will 1/+3.
Abilities: Str 14, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 15, Cha 12

Skills:

Climb 5/+7 [+2 STR]
Hide 5/+7 [+2 DEX]
Listen 5/+7 [+2 WIS]
MS 5/+7 [+2 DEX]
OL 4/+6 [+2 DEX]
Survival 4/+6 [+2 WIS]
Gather Info. 5/+6 [+1 CHA]

Feats: Toughness, Sneak Attack +4, Two Weapon Fighting.
Languages: Common, Orc.

Equipment:
(wt = 58Lb/116Lb/175Lb)

* Worn/Carried:
Leather Armor (15 Lb.)
5x Daggers (5 Lb.)
Peasant Outfit (2 Lb.)
Quarterstaff (4 Lb.)
Wineskin (4 Lb.)

* In Pouch:
2 x Trail Rations (2 Lb.)
4x Caltrops (4 Lb.)
Signal Whistle


Appearance:
Owen is fairly good looking, with a rougish look about him. His often dirt covered face, and lopsided grin usually indicates his mischevious ways. His hair is usually tousled and knotted, falling down over his face. He usually dresses simple, and likes cotton armwraps, proclaiming their comfort. Has the habit of sticking his tongue out when he works or concentrates.

Personality:
Owen is hedonistic whenever he has money, and dedicated when he's looking for it. He enjoys spending his spare change on the finer things in life when he has a spare moment. Owen hates to lose or spend it foolishly on bets and gambling, when it could be used for something more fun and interesting. Generally outgoing, he comes off as sarcastic and a joker. He delights in practical jokes, and goes out of his way to set traps and pranks within view of a large audience, in the hopes of a chorus of laughs from the crowd.

Backstory:
Owen has lived on the streets as far back as he can remember. It's a harsh life, but it has taught him to enjoy those times of abundance and wealth; usually after a clean robbery. With no set goal in life, he lives each day on its own, never caring about what tomorrow will bring. Currently he has left his hometown, after a misunderstanding involving the constable's daughter. He now wanders the land looking for a good time and unguarded houses.



-- Build Notes --

Level 1 [12 CP build]
bab: 0.5[auto]
base saves: WILL +1 [auto], REF +2 [2 CP]
skill points: 4 [auto +1 human]+ 2 (1cp) = 7*4 = 28
feats: light ap [auto], simple wp [auto], Toughness [human], TWF [4 CP], Sneak Attack +2 [5 Cp].

Level 2 [8 CP build]
bab: 0.5 [auto]
bases saves: FORT +1 [auto], REF +1 [1 CP].
skills points: 4 [auto + 1 human] = 5
feats: Sneak Attack +4 [4 CP], Toughness [3 CP].

 

[DrZombie]

New abilities which are in the class progression (quivering palm) cost 4 and still require the previous class abilities as prereqs.

This would make the whole levelless system a bit pointless, I fear. For example, tongue of the sun and moon allows a monk to speak to any living creature, at lvl 17 or such. That's a rather cool ability, but if you'd have to take all the monk abilities to be able to take that feat, maybe you'd be better of just using the class system. Hmmm.

On the other hand, from base classes it's only the monk that has these weird non-chained abilities popping up, the rest is pretty straightforward.

The thing is, doghead, are we using these rules to make characters for this game or are you working on a classless system even the vilest powerplaying munchkin couldn't abuse (well, you know what I mean).
I mean, I'm a bit of a logical thinker, and yes, occasionally a munchkinesque side of my character pops up with weird combos, so I'm more than willing to let this discussion run untill we've got a perfect system and you sell the idea to hasbro for a quarter of the wizard stock, become rich and famous, start your own website and ignore us lesser mortals.

Even so, let's just make 2nd lvl characters that we all think aren't way out there in terms of nasty evil combo's only a 62nd lvl deity could have in the basic system and start playing. I'm having doghead withdrawal symptoms here (easy recognisable by the unceasing tailwagging and sniffing of crotches)

 

[doghead]

1)A couple possible approaches, but I think 4cp/class ability is the simplest, and ltimately probably the best. Might like to chat further with you about the bard progression however (With Temujin playing a sneak attack-type roguish character, I'm leaning more toward a bard-like route, but 13 skill points to get up to inspire courage seems a bit daunting. )

A5/4CP cost for class ablities is probably the way to go.

Do you mean 13 CP? The bardic music ability is a bit of a confused one, with the progressions being less than obvious. At first glance I would say - entry: Bardic Music [5], progression: Inspire courage [4] should be ok. I know that we have talked about this, but I can't remember what conclusions we came to. I'll go back and hunt it down later.

2)Although it would be much more work for you, you could also turn the class abilities into true feats, with pre-reqs of bab, ability scores, other feats, etc. Sure you could spend all the points necessary to get to Perfect Self by 4th level, but only if you don't spend enough points to also get to the Bab+10 that you also need to take the feat. Etc.

DrSpunj and others have done something pretty much along those lines. Its has taken them a lot of time. I don't have the time, or the expertise for something like this. Nor the desire really. Basically, I wanted something that could be pretty much summed up on a single page, and soon committed to memory. Classless Lite.

3)Different costs could apply to different ablities. A level of Priest spell casting would cost more than, say, a level of paladin spell casting. Also a lot of work, and maybe playtesting.

As you said, more work, and more to remember. For Paladins and Ranger analogues, would it work to just take a level of cleric or druid spellcasting. It looks like the former just use cut down versions of the spell list and spells per day tables of the latter - so nothing is really lost. For Bards, this is not quite the case as they have a unique spell list.

I did actually have a spell point system sketched out as well, that would have given all spell casters the same basic spell casting ability in each level. Only the spell lists would differ. This would deal with 'the bard problem', but would mean becoming lab rates for another of dogheads half baked ideas (actually, I think its its a good system, but I do find my ideas make alot of people blanche).

4)A limited version of 3: Abilities which are a true progression (Rage 3/day from 2/day; Diamond soul from Diamond Body - one per level, as you suggested above) cost 3 and have the previous abilities as prereqs. New abilities which are in the class progression (quivering palm) cost 4 and still require the previous class abilities as prereqs.

What worries me about this is sorting out which is what.

Maerdwyn, let me know what you are thinking of doing, and what concerns you about it and we'll sort out a solution.

I'll get up a copy of the spell point system for consideration.

 

[doghead]

This would make the whole levelless system a bit pointless, I fear. For example, tongue of the sun and moon allows a monk to speak to any living creature, at lvl 17 or such. That's a rather cool ability, but if you'd have to take all the monk abilities to be able to take that feat, maybe you'd be better of just using the class system. Hmmm.

On the other hand, from base classes it's only the monk that has these weird non-chained abilities popping up, the rest is pretty straightforward.

The thing is, doghead, are we using these rules to make characters for this game or are you working on a classless system even the vilest powerplaying munchkin couldn't abuse (well, you know what I mean).
I mean, I'm a bit of a logical thinker, and yes, occasionally a munchkinesque side of my character pops up with weird combos, so I'm more than willing to let this discussion run untill we've got a perfect system and you sell the idea to hasbro for a quarter of the wizard stock, become rich and famous, start your own website and ignore us lesser mortals.

Oh yes please. Not Trillions. Billions!

But yes. I mean no, I'm not really looking for a munchikin proof system. Bring em on and I'll mow em down.

*He's very gung-ho today, the old doghead.*
~I'll say. Must be all those junk yard dogbuscuits~
*Not very funny but.*
~Never is, poor bastard.~

Er, where was I? The system. Its open to abuse, and has a few balance issues. Definately.

Even so, let's just make 2nd lvl characters that we all think aren't way out there in terms of nasty evil combo's only a 62nd lvl deity could have in the basic system and start playing. I'm having doghead withdrawal symptoms here (easy recognisable by the unceasing tailwagging and sniffing of crotches)

Yes absolutely. All I want is some characters in a game so I can score my first TPK and get my Official Rat Bastard DM T-shirt.

 

[doghead]

Hey Temujin,

I'll do the Build Notes now and work through the character sheet later.

-- Build Notes --

Level 1 [12 CP build]
bab: 0.5[auto]
base saves: WILL +1 [auto], REF +2 [2 CP]
skill points: 4 [auto +1 human]+ 2 (1cp) = 7*4 = 28
feats: light ap [auto], simple wp [auto], Toughness [human], Combat Expertise[entry], TWF [4 CP], Sneak Attack +2 [5 Cp].

Level 2 [8 CP build]
bab: 0.5 [auto]
bases saves: FORT +1 [auto], REF +1 [1 CP], WILL +1 [1 CP].
skills points: 4 [auto + 1 human] = 5
feats: Sneak Attack +4 [3 CP], Toughness [3 CP].[/QUOTE]


Level 1
Feats: Entry: Combat Expertise cost [4 CP], which would put you 4CP over.

Level 2
Feats: Progression: Sneak attack +4 costs [4 CP]. Sorry, you kinda got caught in the middle on that one.