Paladin / Warlock Faith conflict query

[jaelis]

OK, how do you resolve the potential faith conflict for multiclassing warlock & paladin?

However you (the player) think is best!

 

[Chase Skylark]

OK, how do you resolve the potential faith conflict for multiclassing warlock & paladin?

You don't, paladin don't serve Gods, they are powered by their oath of service. Warlock do favors to their patron(note: patron is not master) for power. Unless you're trying to specifically engineer a story to take away the paladin powers to turn him into oathbreaker. The whole "You're patron demands the blood of all the children in this village or you lose your warlock powers" to force them to pick a side is ludicrous and bad DMing

 

[pemerton]

you've put the PC firmly in the driver's seat with a relationship with a powerful entity. This doesn't sit well with me

Why not?

 

[Oofta]

Technically a paladin does not swear an oath to a god, they swear an oath to an ideal. If their warlock patron causes them to violate their oath, then they have to seek absolution. If they don't seek absolution (depending on the DM) they have to abandon their class or possibly become an Oathbreaker paladin option. See the BREAKING YOUR OATH section in the DMG.

In my campaign, they'd lose all of their paladin abilities and become a full time warlock. Or if they truly sought absolution their warlock patron would not be happy and probably withhold their power. If they find a patron that also supports their oath they're probably OK.

On a related note in my campaign I don't allow cleric/warlocks. Clerics do have a patron deity. As the saying goes, you cannot serve two masters.

 

[TwoSix]

I tend to believe that when you don't want characters with built in conflicts, it's because you want the players to focus on your storyline and the conflicts you're creating. It's a story path game, not a PC centered game.

Or you're one of those people that believe that "classes" are actual in-game entities, and not merely a metagame construction tool. I don't get it, but I know those people exist.

 

[Satyrn]

On a related note in my campaign I don't allow cleric/warlocks. Clerics do have a patron deity. As the saying goes, you cannot serve two masters.

I thought of a scenario while pondering the OP's question that might workaround this.

What if, somewhere out there in the great planes, Asmodeus and Pelor were engaged in their own private littlewar over some piece of the cosmos. Asmodeus himself has led a siege against Pelor's celestial fortress and their armies have fought to a standstill.

So, Pelor strides forward and proposes a duel. One-on-one, him and Asmodeus, winner take all. But it's not a swordfight he proposes, but a battle for the soul of a single mortal soul. Asmodeus accepts.

They look down upon the world, and pick their battleground - the PC. Pelor sends his priests to convert him, to train him. While Asmodeus tempts him with power. When this mortal breathes his last, where will his soul seek out its final rest? Which great being will win?

 

[MarkB]

As a player, I'd probably prefer not to resolve it. Leave it as a constant struggle of faith for my character, how to steer the path between my oath and my pact without ever drawing them into conflict, what happens when at some point I do need to choose, and who do I trust more - the deity who grants me the inner strength to go on, or the patron who provides me with power?

 

[Draegn]

The resolution to this conflict lies in your answer to the question of why warlock magic is considered arcane rather than divine. For one reason or another, Warlocks’ powers, which they receive from an extraplanar entity, are treated differently by the setting than the powers that clerics receive from extraplanar entities. Is it because Clerics receive their powers as a reward for devotion while Warlocks receive theirs as payment for services? Is it because Clerics receive their powers from Gods and Warlocks receive theirs from lesser entities? Is it because of something else? How you think about the nature of warlock magic vs. Divine magic will affect how you think about the conflict of a divine caster also receiving warlock powers from another, potentially opposing entity.

In my games, it’s because Warlocks don’t serve their “patrons.” They use knowledge of arcane laws and mystical binding techniques to force these entities into patronage. It’s arcane magic because it relies on an understanding of the cosmic rules that govern interactions between planar entities, rather than in exchange of service. A Cleric is in an agreement with his God, he serves faithfully and follows his god’s commandments and in exchange he can perform miracles. A Warlock finds the true name of a powerful Fiend, or devises a particularly effective sigil of binding, or learns that a certain Archfey must grant a boon to a mortal who performs a particular ritual, and leverages this knowledge to make her “patron” grant her power. There is no internal conflict of faith for a Paladin who serves Pelor to bind Asmodeus into involuntary Patronage.

Using your example of Asmodeus; I would think that Asmodeus would be rather pissed and looking to find a way to knacker and or convert the paladin.

In my game "warlocks" are marked with a glowing "mark" from the patron. That is a specific size depending on the level of the "gift" received. To illustrate; the mark of a magic missile is smaller than the mark of a fireball.

When the gift is then used there is a chance that the patron will collect in some way (wealth, items or deeds) either in person or through an agent.

 

[Charlaquin]

I really disagree with this - while the Patron may not have the same influence as a God has, and there may be some obligations, you've put the PC firmly in the driver's seat with a relationship with a powerful entity. This doesn't sit well with me. Furthermore:

No. That's *wizards* doing this. Wizard understand what they are doing (most of the time). A big indication of this is that they use Intelligence as their driving stat, warlocks do not. Sorcerers have powers that comes from within and an intuitive grasp of magic. Warlock have *neither* understanding nor inate powers. So you aren't smart enough to understand planar mechanics and eldritch grammars, you don't have dragon blood in your veins, you aren't particularly religious... but you really want magical powers. What do you do? You make a pact.

And what do you gain from your pact? *secrets*. Formulaes, tips, methods you never would have managed on your own, and don't fully understand. Mechanically this is illustrated in the warlock having a very shallow pool of spells (as in 2-3 slots), but one he can renew quite easily.

The Patron (at least, this is how I run it in my game) can't "withdraw" his/her gifts to the warlock. A warlock who betrays his or her patron can keep casting! Buuuut if they want more secrets (ie gain levels) well then... they must stay in their patron's good grace.

That’s also a perfectly valid answer if that’s the way you prefer to handle it.

Oh that never backfires, nope, never, not at all!

Exactly! it’s almost as safe as a Faustian bargain.

(seriously, what kind of punk do you think Asmodeus is?)

And this is my answer to the assertion that this relationship puts the PC in the driver’s seat.

 

[Blue]

OK, how do you resolve the potential faith conflict for multiclassing warlock & paladin?

There's no single "this is how I would reconcile it" for all paladin/warlocks, but there are as many individual solutions as there are players in the game.

Here's a few:

A warlock who has been granted power but is not trying to reform and save their soul, but is still bound by their pact can have great RP potential.

Aligned religious and patrons work well, such as an Oath of the Ancients who has a contract with a particular Archfey.
Paladins amusingly are not required to be sworn to a religion, read the fluff in the PHB, they are sworn to an oath. A pact for power to fulfill your own (and not to a being opposed to that oath) would work fine.

Oath of Vengeance even has "By Any Means Necessary", so as long as you are also following the tenant "Fight the Greater Evil", making a pact for more power seems pretty in-character for them.

If you've seen the Serenity movie, the Operative acknowledges they are a monster who will have no place in the order they are fighting for, but must embrace these means in order to help the greater humanity achieve this goal. That would make a great paladin/warlock. "I am not pure myself, because I my look into the Abyss in order to bring abut the greater good". (Wow, now I want to write that character up.)