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Per-Encounter Powers

Mercutio01

First Post
I just simply disagree that using encounter-based resources forces encounter-based play. It's already been noted an encounter power is more like a "Short Rest Recharge" power - and /that/ wouldn't wouldn't force encounter-based play.
I see this argument tossed around a lot by people who like encounter powers, but I am honest-to-god curious: In what cases would you NOT take a short rest after an encounter? And how frequently do such cases actually occur in game?

Edit - After all, it's only 5 minutes. It's not like an extended rest that requires 6 hours.
 

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Harlekin

First Post
I seems your problems mostly stem from a misunderstanding of the term "encounter".

Hell, let's do it with Keep on the Borderlands/Caves of Chaos. Area A where the kobolds are. In 4e, the first encounter or two are wastes of time. The PCs are going to slaughter the couple of kobolds they find and do so without expending anything. And if even one PC wins initiative or they get surprise, it's going to happen without any reinforcements to balance the encounter. Flip side, you have the room with the "up to 40" kobolds in it. In a daily-based game, the PCs can horde their resources and have an acceptable challenge in that room if they choose their ground. An encounter-based game, that's a TPK. They're going to use up their encounter resources too quickly and their daily abilities aren't going to be helpful (except for the couple that are AoEs). Even if you turn that room into nothing but minions to have the same balance, it's just flat out not going to work unless the PCs also choose their ground, forcing a bottleneck or something like that in which case you're right back where you started with a boring, pointless encounter.

In almost all situations, the kobold caves are a single encounter. Unless the PC manage to take out the initial guards without any noise, alarm should be raised throughout the entire cave. Once the alarm is raised, there is no way the PCs get enough time for a short rest. At that point, every hp lost increases the chance of a dead PC and even fights with inferior opponents have some sting.

In general published D&D adventures have been encounter based since BD&D. In most adventures you move from room to room, fight or negotiate with the inhabitants and move on. Each room is an encounter. Even formalizing this is nothing new in 4ed, already 3.x had extensive guidelines how to build encounters and was based around the math that ~14 encounters should be required to level.

And that is not surprising. Given how broadly encounters are defined in D&D, essentially any dangerous of challenging circumstance that you cannot arbitrarily interrupt for a short rest is an encounter.

I would go even further and say that most interesting things that happen in any RPG happens in an encounter. A chase scene where you run away from the city guards, or a tense negotiation with the king's adviser or an adventure to the caves of chaos where a never ending stream of kobolds assaults your position.

Given that RPGs are almost always built around encounters, I consider abandoning encounter-based design a big step backwards. But D&D next is mostly being designed to be attractive to players of older editions. As this thread shows, eliminating encounter powers is the right measure to fulfill that design goal.
 
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Arctic Wolf

First Post
Well I do enjoy the system 4e has I think it could of been a bit better. Of the ways I have been pondering how to improve it, here is the best I have come up with which may make vanician (sp?) even happy:

All characters have an at-will ability of the power they are given so they can still do something. Characters have a certain number of encounter powers they can use each day. This way we can show that while they can perform these powerful feats, they can only do so many of them in a day. I also think that martial characters should have more encounters than casters because you could allow casters to have dailys. When a caster uses a daily, it is representing him gathering as much resources into one big attack. So if you were lvl 1 a fighter would have 5 encounters and a wizard would have 3 encounters and 1 daily. Here is an example for a utility and an attack I made up/used.


Burning Hands Prayer
At-will 1d6 At-will Ally gains +1 to anything until end of turn
Encounter 2d6 Encounter Ally gains +5 to anything "" ""
Daily 3d6 Daily Ally gain +10, doesn't crit fail on a 1 "" ""

As you can see the wizard can choose to use a small portion of his power with the at-will to kill one kobold or crank it up and use one of his encounter slots to kill a handful or use his daily slot to clear an entire room. Same with the prayer ability the cleric has. The player can choose weather to do the min or go all in and destroy an enemy. What do you all think?
 

Harlekin

First Post
I see this argument tossed around a lot by people who like encounter powers, but I am honest-to-god curious: In what cases would you NOT take a short rest after an encounter? And how frequently do such cases actually occur in game?

Edit - After all, it's only 5 minutes. It's not like an extended rest that requires 6 hours.

If you can you will always take it. But often you may not have the opportunity. Take the typical action movie out there and see how often the protagonist can take a 5 minute breather.

For example, when my players infiltrate an enemy camp, they know that once they are discovered, they will probably not be able to take a short rest until they are far away from the premises.
 

Mercutio01

First Post
If you can you will always take it. But often you may not have the opportunity. Take the typical action movie out there and see how often the protagonist can take a 5 minute breather.

For example, when my players infiltrate an enemy camp, they know that once they are discovered, they will probably not be able to take a short rest until they are far away from the premises.
That latter bit sounds like one encounter.

But since "Die Hard" gets pushed forward as an example of play someone wants to emulate, John McClane does take a few breaks to regroup.

Or, to go really super gonzo, even in the film "Crank" Chev Chelios has some 5 minute breaks between kicking ass.

And 5 minute breaks happen super-frequently in the Bond movies.

I'm actually having a hard time thinking of movies where characters don't have at least a few minutes between encounters. Commando, Enter the Dragon, Terminator, T2, Last Action Hero, Batman, Bourne, Transporter, Total Recall, Avengers, Thor, Captain America--between just about every single fight there is a break where the characters catch a breath.
 
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Harlekin

First Post
That latter bit sounds like one encounter.

But since "Die Hard" gets pushed forward as an example of play someone wants to emulate, John McClane does take a few breaks to regroup.

Or, to go really super gonzo, even in the film "Crank" Chev Chelios has some 5 minute breaks between kicking ass.

And 5 minute breaks happen super-frequently in the Bond movies.

I'm actually having a hard time thinking of movies where characters don't have at least a few minutes between encounters. Commando, Enter the Dragon, Terminator, T2, Last Action Hero, Batman, Bourne, Transporter, Total Recall, Avengers, Thor, Captain America--between just about every single fight there is a break where the characters catch a breath.


Sorry for being unclear, I did not mean to suggest that most movies are just one single encounter.

I just wanted to point out that in most action movies there are situations where a fight turns into a chase scene turns into another fight and so there is no time for a 5 minute break in between those scenes (Indiana Jones typically gets the fewest short rests of all heroes). And those would be examples when there is no time for a short rest to refresh encounter powers.
 

Mercutio01

First Post
Sorry for being unclear, I did not mean to suggest that most movies are just one single encounter.

I just wanted to point out that in most action movies there are situations where a fight turns into a chase scene turns into another fight and so there is no time for a 5 minute break in between those scenes (Indiana Jones typically gets the fewest short rests of all heroes). And those would be examples when there is no time for a short rest to refresh encounter powers.

Ah ha. That makes a little more sense. But those are rare, and that's really what I was asking.

If the argument is "but it takes a short rest to recover" and the counter-argument is "short rests are very common," then the first argument doesn't really have the same kind of weight that it tries to put forward.
 

FireLance

Legend
Again, I am not sure what this "encounter-based design" really means. Certainly, PCs will find it easier to take a short rest than a long rest, but all this affects is baseline PC capability. It has about as much effect on encounter design as gaining levels would.

If the argument is that it requires DMs to ensure that the PCs can take a short rest between fights, I don't see why this has to be the case. The onus is on the players to ensure that they take on the monsters in a way that would allow them to take a short rest between fights - by preventing the monsters they are currently fighting from raising the alarm and causing their allies to converge on the PCs' location in one big group, for example.
 

Harlekin

First Post
Ah ha. That makes a little more sense. But those are rare, and that's really what I was asking.

If the argument is "but it takes a short rest to recover" and the counter-argument is "short rests are very common," then the first argument doesn't really have the same kind of weight that it tries to put forward.

I think that depends on what you mean by common. I thought the argument was that short rests are not automatic, but that there is a reasonable number of circumstances where they are not available. To put this in numbers, short rests are not available after 5%-30% of all fights, and that percentage depends on the scenario you are playing (and as Firelance points out, the PC's actions).

In most of these movies, what is more common, short rests or long rests?

I would say that strongly depends on the movie. In most James Bond movies, if JB has multiple encounters on the same day, chances are about 50:50 that he gets a short rest between them. John McLain takes several short rests (and is clearly out of healing surges at the end of the movie). Indiana Jones (especially in the Temple of Doom) never has time to take a short rest.
 

Abstruse

Legend
Again, I am not sure what this "encounter-based design" really means.
Encounter-based design means that the tone of adventure writing is built around the "encounter". If a good portion of the party's resources reset after a short 5-10 minute rest, then that is going to be and encounter-based design. A daily-based design means that the adventure is written around the "adventuring day". If a good portion of the party's resources reset after a long rest of 8 hours, it's daily-based.

The reason the entire design of adventures shift is because there is no real loss of resources from one encounter to the next in encounter-based design. You get all your encounter powers back and you can spend a healing surge or two to get back to full HP. After that 5 minute rest, you are back exactly to the point you were before the fight started. This means that the encounter itself has no real lasting impact on the game day.

D&D 4e did have some daily resources. Daily powers, obviously. There was also healing surges and, before the rules update, magic item power uses. Other than expending those, the party was back to complete and full strength after each encounter.

What this means for designing an adventure was that each individual encounter had to be challenging in and of itself. If an encounter doesn't threaten the party in some way, it's not going to be challenging because they can waltz right through it without expending any useful resources. They have no reason to hold back encounter powers, for example, if there's only one or two enemies. They'll use an encounter power, use an action point (which is reset after every two encounters so it's still encounter-based), and use another one if they're 3rd level or higher. Since encounter powers are twice as effective typically than at-will powers (doing twice as much damage or affecting an area), they will pretty much always win these kinds of encounters.

Alternately, larger or more difficult encounters can become very threatening in this sort of game. The players will typically only have a few encounter powers (1 at 1st, 2 at 3rd, 3 at 7th, etc.). Those resources can't be horded, so they can't hold one back from Encounter 1 and then use it twice in Encounter 2 since they're reset at the end of the encounter. They walked into the far more dangerous encounter with the exact same resources they had in the previous, easier encounter.

For example, if the party comes across a pair of guards 30 feet away in front of a goblin cave, it's almost pointless to waste the time rolling initiative or setting up the board. If they win initiative, they're going to rush up and use their stronger encounter powers to kill them both before they get a turn. If they lose initiative, and one of the goblins gets to attack, no big deal. It's just a few HP, the goblin's probably going to die before it gets a turn again, and the player that was hit can use a healing surge (one of 6 to 10 per day, so very little loss of resource) to get back the HP.

If, however, the goblins have a chance to call for reinforcements of a dozen warriors, which is now a sizable advantage to the goblins. The players don't have enough encounter powers to drop them all quickly and the encounter has just become far more dangerous to the point of possibly being unwinnable.

Daily-based design, on the other hand, focuses on the adventuring day. Such small encounters do cause resources to be used like hit points, spells, etc. Even with a mechanic like hit dice to regain HP, it's still a great loss of resources - you use one of up to 3 HD you have (at 3rd level, since you seem to get one per level) to gain back some HP. That's a big resource. If you have a power or ability you can do 3 times per day and have to use one, that's 1/3 of that resource.

Because of that style of design, adventures can be written with more variety. To take the example from above, the players won't necessarily automatically win against the two goblin guards, even if they do win initiative. If they survive the first hit or win initiative, they can attack back, costing the characters a small amount of HP which may make them choose between staying at lower HP or using a HD after the encounter.

If the goblins raise an alarm and a dozen goblins pour out of the cave, the party still has a wealth of resources to throw at the encounter. They can start using their spells and X times per day abilities one after another to thin the group out and regain HP that are lost. It may be a challenge and they may expend all their daily resources (forcing them to retreat and rest), but it is not the complete table turning from easy encounter to TPK it is with the other system.

The reason why most of us feel that daily-based design is better than encounter-based design (or at least I feel this way) is that you can design an adventure that is encounter-based in a system that has daily-based resources. I can craft my encounters so that each one is challenging in and of itself without being overwhelming, forcing the characters to use their resources at a regular pace. Or I can go to either extreme, having a larger number of smaller encounters that slowly whittle away their resources, or one single huge encounter that uses them all in one big fight.

If you have encounter-based resources (again, I'm talking about the vast majority of the resources refreshing after each encounter), you can only create adventures in the encounter-based design without doing a lot of hard work and most likely adding in several house rules redefining exactly what an encounter is. There is no whittling down of resources like above because the resources refresh after each encounter - nothing is lost. You also can't have one single massive blow-out encounter because the players do not have the overwhelming resources they have in the other system - they have the same resources they have for every other encounter (plus possibly a daily power or two).

Did that explain it a little bit better?
 

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