Protection from... But there's no alignment?

[Bloodsparrow]

I'm currently getting ready to start a campaign where we will not be bothering with alignment. (At least as a game mechanic. People like Paladins, Clerics, & Druids will be expected by their gods to follow certain modes of behavior.)

The problem is that this gets rid of some useful protection spells. If alignment never "existed", there wouldn't be a need to create spells that protected one from them. (Also, if there is no alignment, then you CAN'T protect yourself from it.)

However, the need/desire for spells that "protect from..." or are "magic circles against..." is viable, regardless of whether the original focus for those spells is being used or not.

The main problem that I see is that it eliminates some fairly good defensive spells for characters who have limited access to spells. (Such as Bards and spell casters who specialize. Though I admit, it's rare that I find somebody who specializes in Abjuration.)

So my question is; If one doesn't use alignment, what sorts of changes can be made to those spells so that a) Classes with limited access to spells aren't hosed in the defensive spell department, and b) it stays within the balance of the original spells?

 

[Sertimon]

Hi Bloodsparrow,
(and welcome to the boards by the way!)

One way to do it is to have spells that protect against creature types, such as Protection from Outsiders, Protection from Undead etc ... you just use the same spells, but to a specific type of creatures. But this would mean that you will need a lot of these spells (perhaps to many)! And maybe these spells aren't need for humanoids or monstrous humanoids (so there are no Protection from Humans or Protection from Elves) since they really don't make any sense. I would rule that they only work against extraplanar or magical creatures such as Celestials, Demons, Devils, Magical Beasts or maybe even Dragons.

The only problem I see with this system is that spells such as Dispel Evil might be hard to pin down, but you could use the same rules as above (i.e. Dispel Outsiders etc).

That's atleast how I think I would handle it, if I removed alignment ... no idea if its works or not

 

[Angcuru]

Protection from _____
Magic Circle Against _____
etc.

Add a creature type. I'd say you have to be specific in certain areas. No Protection from Demi-Humans, you'd have to specify like Protection from Orcs, Elves, Drow, Humans, Dwarves...etc.

 

[Aaron2]

Only the first of Protection from Evil's effects is based on alignment. The other two work just all the time. I see no problem with Protection from Humaniods since it just give +2 AC and +2 saves. That's not too big a deal.


Aaron

 

[Tywyll]

this was how I did it

In my campaign, there were effectively only three alignments: Law, Chaos, and Balance (or Neutral for the apathetic and the nonbelievers). The spells Prot vs X existed, but they worked based on the diety you followed. Since the gods were aligned in the Law vs Chaos arc, if you protected versus Law, you were protecting yourself from followers of the antagonistic faith. There were no Prot vs Balance spells, and Neutral characters were immune to such.

Granted, I ran a fairly politics/religion heavy campaign, and after some initial adjustment, my players really enjoyed it. Of course I made other alterations, things like beneficial spells only working on followers of your gods group (Lawful or Chaotic) not just on you "allies". It often sucked for the main chaotic character in the group as the party cleric was a bastion of Law, but strangely they got on better then just about everyone else.

 

[Spatzimaus]

IMC we got rid of alignment as well, and ran into this problem. Ours is more of an elemental-based system, so Protection from Fire/Earth/Water/Air/etc. are obvious choices. But it's still useful to have a short-duration protection spell for other use, and it might work for your campaign.

Basically, we just turned the old Protection from Evil spell into Protection From Whoever Is Trying To Kill Me and toned down the bonuses a bit. On the bright side, it let us roll Holy Aura-style spells into it too.

There's actually a series of 9 of these, one at each level, each of which adds a new bonus, and the size of each bonus given increases by 1 per 5 caster levels.
So, Protection 1 cast by a 1st-level caster might only add 2 melee deflection AC and DR 2/- against melee weapons
At the other extreme, Protection 9 cast by a 20th-level caster might add 6 deflection AC, DR 6/- against all attacks, +6 to all saves, +6 to all resistances, anyone who hits you in melee takes 6 damage, anyone you hit in melee takes 6 damage, you get 20% concealment, and so on.

 

[DreamChaser]

In this game, I presume that there are dark gods who wish ill upon humanity/the world.

If so, then there is "evil" even if it is not a daily concept for characters. Evil in this idea is like Taint in Rokugan. It is the antithesis of creation that demons, devils, dark gods, vengeful spirits, dark necromancers, etc. tend to work for.

In this case there is only one type needed.

Protection from _______ (Taint, Corruption, Evil, Oblivion, the Devourer, etc)

Magical Circle against ________

This way, you have a moral relativism where characters are not defined as good or evil but there are some acts which go so completely against the order of creation that the very universe is repelled by them. Few mortals ever touch this sort of evil...and I, as an adventurer, would want to be protected from it.

DC

 

[MarauderX]

IMC I don't worry about alignment too much either. I have had two 'good aligned' armies go to war, and protection, etc. spells worked just fine. I just had to modify it to be "protection from those who wish me harm. That way good can fight good and have the buffs, same for evil, and of course neutral. It's simple, easy to work with as a DM, and the players can use it no matter who they face without having to worry about it.

 

[Salamander Napolean]

(At least as a game mechanic. People like Paladins, Clerics, & Druids will be expected by their gods to follow certain modes of behavior.)

Have you gotten rid of Alignment as a defining part of the characters, or as part of the world? People might be morally ambiguous, but that doesn't mean that monsters are. Some things could be supernaturally evil, like devils, cthulhus, and such. The spells would work on them, but trying to detect evil on a serial killer would get no result.

 

[DaveStebbins]

Instead of lengthy titles like "Protection from Those who Wish Me Harm" and "Magic Circle Against Whoever is Trying To Kill Me," why not just call it "Protection from Enemies?"

As was previously pointed out, it only makes a difference in one of the three spell applications and, in practice, I don't think "enemies" will have an effect much different from "evil."

If I just flat-out missed the tongue-in-cheek humor in those responses, please forgive my denseness.

-Dave
"Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle." --Plato