D&D 5E Reducing High Magic (6th-9th levels) Spell Slots Option

[DND_Reborn]

The 6-8 encounter adventuring day isnt set in stone mate. It's a rough median (which it seems from your post above, is a median figure you're actually hitting).

On shorter adventuring days (1-2 encounters) the casters will shine and you can throw slighty harder encounters at the party due to the fact they can nova a bit more safely. On your longer (12+) adventuring days, the exact opposite occurs and short rest classes and 'at will' classes (Rogues and Champions) will shine, with casters holding back on dumping high level spells.

(emphasis mine) Seriously? I think you must think I am an idiot...

With 4-6 high magics (most of which can have huge impact on an encounter), the typical AD sees high magic in most encounters, especially with 3 casters in the group! That is a total of 12-18 high magics per day!!

So, as I wrote in other posts, the "traveling" days with fewer encounters are super easy. (Yes, the 1-2 encounters you mentioned).
Questing days that are not dungeon crawls/ infiltration missions are more usually 4-6 or so.
Dungeons crawls and heavy days (easily 10-15 or more encounters) happen often enough during the "meat" of the adventure/quest.

Again, with 3 casters, even on heavy days we can have one of us or another typically drop a high magic spell per encounter.

Now, this should make it obvious that a huge part of the issue is that we have THREE casters with high magic (not surprising in a party of 6 PCs). So, this rule is to help balance that out without having to throw insane encounters at the party over and over again.

 

[DND_Reborn]

UPDATE:

After our meeting yesterday, we are leaning mostly towards keeping all the high magic slots, but allowing casters to only recover 1 high level per long rest. This way, you can start an "adventure" with all your slots, and use one each day, keeping the rest in reserve for when you really need it. But, if you NOVA them all during a day, it will take you multiple long rests to get them all back.

It is a simple house-rule to implement and accomplishes the goal (hopefully) of keeping several (like 5-10) high magic spells from being cast by a party.

 

[Asisreo]

Again, with 3 casters, even on heavy days we can have one of us or another typically drop a high magic spell per encounter.

Now, this should make it obvious that a huge part of the issue is that we have THREE casters with high magic (not surprising in a party of 6 PCs). So, this rule is to help balance that out without having to throw insane encounters at the party over and over again.

What are we balancing in comparison to? Is there a particular player that feels underpowered or are you balancing to keep them in-line with the expectations of your world?

 

[Helldritch]

UPDATE:

After our meeting yesterday, we are leaning mostly towards keeping all the high magic slots, but allowing casters to only recover 1 high level per long rest. This way, you can start an "adventure" with all your slots, and use one each day, keeping the rest in reserve for when you really need it. But, if you NOVA them all during a day, it will take you multiple long rests to get them all back.

It is a simple house-rule to implement and accomplishes the goal (hopefully) of keeping several (like 5-10) high magic spells from being cast by a party.

Almost look like somekind of "memorization" system like the first edition. Except now you "prepare" spell slots instead of spells. It is a much better take than the original thoughts. Limiting things to one spell slot of high level is a bit restrictive but what about 1 slot of 8 and 9th level or two of 6-7th level spells? Lower level casters would not be too harshly impacted but would still hesitate to nova and it would still restrict high level spell recovery.

 

[Flamestrike]

With 4-6 high magics (most of which can have huge impact on an encounter), the typical AD sees high magic in most encounters, especially with 3 casters in the group! That is a total of 12-18 high magics per day!!

If you're running 3 x 20th level casters in a party at late T4 sure.

But lets look at the sort of spells available at late T3 and T4 available to Wizards:

7th level
Delayed Blast Fireball
Etherealness
Finger of Death
Forcecage
Magnificent Mansion
Mirage Arcane
Plane Shift
Prismatic Spray
Project Image
Reverse Gravity
Sequester
Simulacrum
Symbol
Teleport

8th level
Antimagic Field
Antipathy/Sympathy
Clone
Control Weather
Demiplane
Dominate Monster
Feeblemind
Incendiary Cloud
Maze
Mind Blank
Power Word Stun
Sunburst

Barring Simulacrum cheese, none of those spells are 'ZOMG' game breaking for late T3/ early T4 PCs, and Wizards will only have enough fuel in the tank to cast 1 such spell of each level as they come on-line throughout those levels.

At 15th level (when 8th level spells come online), the PCs are dealing with some pretty epic encounters. Im not seeing how any of the above spells are 'unbalanced' at all.

 

[BlivetWidget]

For example, my AC of 24 is from my elven chain shirt (AC 14), Shield +2 (AC 18), DEX 16 (AC 21), and our house-ruled Level Bonus (AC 24). As a war magic wizard, I have Durable Magic which gives me another +2 when I am concentrating on a spell, so then an AC 26. Throw out the shield spell and it is AC 31. My only other magic items are my winged boots and a staff of healing, along with the potions typical for each PC.

That's not a correct AC calculation. Elven Chain gives an AC of 13 + Dex modifier (max of 2) + 1. So after the armor and Dex, you're at AC 16. Your magic shield is certainly not standard fare for a wizard, as it requires special proficiency to use - nothing inherently wrong with that, but be aware it's not a factor for most wizard groups. Your magic shield then raises you to AC 20, not 21. So, reduce all your ACs by 1.

Between your houserule and whatever you did to get proficiency to use that magic shield (Moderately Armored feat + Lightly Armored Feat, or multiclass), you're getting +7 to AC that the vast majority of wizard players will never see in a game. +7 is a huge bonus.

 

[jayoungr]

And most of the monsters bonus's actually exceed our bonus. When we were in hell, we were AC +2 so any creature CR 10-14 had an equal bonus to hit us, and CR 15 or higher actually had a better chance of hitting us; even creatures of 5-9 CR were only -1 to hit us... so not a huge penalty by any means.

But earlier, you sounded like your monsters were having trouble hitting your spellcasters for enough damage to put them in danger of losing concentration, and you seemed to be concentrating on whether they hit or not. If you think their to-hit rolls are actually okay, then maybe you need to buff the damage more? Maybe make it so they always do max damage, or add an extra die, or guarantee that at least one of the dice rolls max--something like that.

 

[DND_Reborn]

That's not a correct AC calculation. Elven Chain gives an AC of 13 + Dex modifier (max of 2) + 1. So after the armor and Dex, you're at AC 16. Your magic shield is certainly not standard fare for a wizard, as it requires special proficiency to use - nothing inherently wrong with that, but be aware it's not a factor for most wizard groups. Your magic shield then raises you to AC 20, not 21. So, reduce all your ACs by 1.

Between your houserule and whatever you did to get proficiency to use that magic shield (Moderately Armored feat + Lightly Armored Feat, or multiclass), you're getting +7 to AC that the vast majority of wizard players will never see in a game. +7 is a huge bonus.

Oi...

Elven chain is a chain shirt +1, so AC 14, not 13. Medium Armor Mastery does give a +3 for DEX (otherwise, you would be correct). And I never said this character was a full wizard. She is a full caster (Wizard 17/ Cleric 2), hence the medium armor and shield proficiency. So, my calculations are correct and your mistakes are understandable since you don't know the class/levels or feats I have (although your error on the elven chain is your mistake).

Now, a full wizard would more likely have other items, and at level 20 such powerful items as a robe of the arch mage (AC 15) is not common of course, but neither is it unreasonable; otherwise you can default to mage armor. Throw in a good DEX 16, bracers, rings, cloaks, or other items and an AC over 20 is not hard to accomplish as others have shown.

Also, what about a full caster cleric with magical plate and shield. Those items do go up to +3, and since most clerics have heavy armor proficiency, you could have a base AC 20, and up to +6 from just the two items (reasonably +3 IMO, but max is +6).

So, yes, PCs in our game have an extra +3 level bonus in tier 4, but as I've shown the bonus creatures get (+1 per 5 CR) make up this difference for the foes we commonly face... in the end, it is an even-draw point more often than not.

 

[BlivetWidget]

Oi...

Elven chain is a chain shirt +1, so AC 14, not 13. [...] your error on the elven chain is your mistake

Your enthusiasm to look "right on the internet" has blinded you to what I wrote. To quote myself:

Elven Chain gives an AC of 13 + Dex modifier (max of 2) + 1

Keep reading to the end of the line and you'll see your mistake in assuming anyone but you is wrong. As for the rest of it, it's entirely on you for asking for feedback without providing the full picture. Eh, I'm done with this thread.

 

[DND_Reborn]

But earlier, you sounded like your monsters were having trouble hitting your spellcasters for enough damage to put them in danger of losing concentration, and you seemed to be concentrating on whether they hit or not. If you think their to-hit rolls are actually okay, then maybe you need to buff the damage more? Maybe make it so they always do max damage, or add an extra die, or guarantee that at least one of the dice rolls max--something like that.

Overall, hitting is about 50/50 unless we use the shield spell. Which at level 18 wizard, I always have at will now (along with Invisibility), so that drops it to about 25/75. Of course, the other casters have shield, but not at will so they are easier to hit unless they use the slots all the time. Of course, I know one of the others has a cloak of displacement, which helps often.

We have discussed making the base DC for concentration checks 15 instead of 10, so any damage below 30 will default to 15 instead of 10.

Regardless, the issue is also most of these high magic spells are impacting encounters too much and too often (again, because we have 3 full casters...). Yes, we rarely lose concentration. In the storm giant example before, a thrown rock will only break concentration about 1 in 20 times when you consider all the factors: hitting, damage, and the save itself.

Anyway, I think front-loading the casters with their normal slots, but limiting recovery to one high magic slot per long rest, will help in the long run.