rescue at rivenroar question

[Thordain]

Don't read if you plan on playing this adventure, I guess, but the spoiler is really small since it's the first encounter. This is the first adventure in the Scars of War adventure path from Dungeon magazine.

The first encounter has players talking in a bar, outside of combat. There are hobgoblins lying in wait outside.

The text of the encounter says that the hobs bust in, kicking in the door, and possibly slaying one or two npcs near the door, then roll initiative.

The way I interpreted this was that the hobs are aware of the other party, and so get a suprise round. In their suprise round, they use the charge action, which lets them move, then do a basic attack (to account for killing an npc)

Now here's where the rules question comes in. One of the players has a rogue, and he rolled an initiative of 18, where the hobs got 8. The rogue wants to know if he gets combat advantage when he attacks a hob.

My ruling was no, because the hobs have already acted in the encounter.

The player is arguing that he got screwed. Here's our chat:

him: so I don't have combat advantage because I go before them in initiative?
me: no, this isn't a suprise round, this is a normal round
him: in 3.5E you still get sneak attack damage if you go first in a normal round You sure that's changed? because they are flatfooted
me: the hobs were aware of people in the bar, and spent their suprise round (standard action only) running in. they were outside the bar. does that make sense?
him: No, because we should still get perception rolls to detect them or it's automatic surprise
me: you mean to detect them when they are outside the bar?
him: Or when they are opening the door at that second, perceive it quickly enough to be able to react right as they are coming in. Again, I'm coming from a 3.5E place here, but if it were 3.5E it shouldn't happen that way
me: I'll ask on the wizards forums, but the adventure has it set out that the orcs come in, and then roll initiative for everyone
him: lol, railroad. see that effectively screws me out of my ability to get combat advantage and act when they are flatfooted as they don't perceive me
me: I don't want you to feel like you are screweed
him: ok, I'm learning the rules here too but that does screw me


I didn't want to paraphrase him and get it wrong, so that's the exchange.

Here's my thoughts:
I think he has a point that since EVERYONE rolled initiative at the same time, he should get his first strike ability.
On the other hand, it seems to me that the hobs had a suprise round -- they spent it charging in.

Can someone help? I don't want the player to think he is screwed here, and I want to come to an understanding that will work in future encounters too.

Thank you

 

[tiornys]

I agree with your interpretation. It might help your player understand if you point out the difference in wording between the rogue's First Strike class feature ("...you have combat advantage against any creatures who have not yet acted in that encounter.") and the paragon feat Seize the Moment ("During the first round of combat and during surprise rounds, you automatically gain combat advantage over a foe whose initiative result is lower than yours.").

The situation that arose in your game is an excellent example of when Seize the Moment would be better than First Strike.

t~

edit: I might have allowed a perception check for the players to be aware of the incoming attack, but they would have been heavily penalized due to the noise inside the bar and the intervening door.

 

[Scholar & Brutalman]

I think you're correct. The hobgoblins have already acted during the surprise round.

 

[fissionessence]

I also agree with your interpretation, and I wouldn't have run it any differently in 3.5. At no point would the hobgoblins ever have been flatfooted, and so a rogue is just out of luck in such a situation.

Afterall, the rogue was walking around a bar ordering drinks or something, while the hobgoblins intentionally charged into a building and started fighting. Who exactly is the player arguing is supposed to be flat-footed here?

Just tell the player that you gave him a perception check using his passive perception (the way you're supposed to do it), but because of the noise in the bar and the fact that the enemies were outside when he made the 'check', he failed it.

Perhaps if the rogue had his back to the wall and he was poised to strike right next to the door, I would have let him sneak attack as the hobgoblins ran in straight past him . . . but he would have needed to be aware that the hobgoblins were about to charge in, so that doesn't really help him any.

First strike is for attacking enemies who aren't prepared for battle, not for attacking a swarm of marauding goblinoids.

~

 

[Liminal Syzygy]

I'm the player in question. I'm kind of giving my friend here a hard time in the chat but I think I explained my position better in a phone call.

PHB p. 266: "If any combatants notice enemy combatants without being noticed in return, the aware opponents gain a surprise round."

The hobgoblins were aware there were people in the bar, but they don't know who, or how much of a threat they are. It's not like they were scrying the building. So like a SWAT team storming a hostage situation they are ready for combat but don't know what they are going to find.

I don't know about passive perception checks, this being my first 4e combat, but if it were 3.5e I'd expect some kind of spot or listen, even at heavy penalty, to notice the door opening.

Also, I have to admit I'm kind of sensitive here as in my 3.5 game last week my DM there (different person) sprung an ambush on us when again, we didn't get any kind of spot checks, and almost caused a TPK with a series of lucky crits before we could do anything.

This kind of auto surprise for the story's sake does seem like railroading, if that is indeed what it says in the module.

 

[fissionessence]

I don't know about passive perception checks, this being my first 4e combat, but if it were 3.5e I'd expect some kind of spot or listen, even at heavy penalty, to notice the door opening.

Unless you actively 'spot' or 'listen' by telling the DM so, you're always assumed to be using your passive Perception score to perceive things. It helps when the DM doesn't want to warn you something might be worth noticing or coming your way simply by asking you to make the check. Instead, he can just check your passive score and know that you're you're not 'perceptive' enough; in this way, you're always making checks, but they're just not random.

If your passive score didn't notice the hobgoblins, and you didn't tell the DM anything like "as long as we're in the pub, I'm going to be on the tip of my toes waiting for enemies to charge in", then I wouldn't give you the first strike. If you had said you were watching the door or something, then I'd let you drop unnoticed under a table as a free action (with stealth) when they came in, and let you spring out on your turn to use first strike. It's not really in line with the rules, but I think as we're experiencing, this situation is kind of awkward.

The rule you quoted assumes that no parties were fighting anyone when the awareness comparisons are made, and it also calls into question the definition for 'aware'.

I could see how you'd want to interpret this in your favor, and it could kind of make sense, but I still stick with what I've been saying. I would have let you break another rule, though, and let you hide in the midst of the chaos if you wanted, because of the fact that the enemies weren't 'aware' of your capabilities.

Maybe even mix a Bluff in with your attack to make them think you were a harmless tavern-goer and get combat advantage that way. But, the way the OP breaks it down: no first strike.

~

 

[Thordain]

what about more hobs?

Thank you for the replies everyone. I think that makes sense (to me at least). I have a followup question. The module says that at the next round, more hobgoblins appear through the door. Will the rogue get first strike against those?

Now how does this work? I guess this is the general question of "if new monsters come running from an adjacent room, does the rogue get first strike against them"?

I would be inclined to rule no again here, because the goblins are SPENDING THEIR TURN RUNNING IN, but I'd like to have it clarified here

 

[Mengu]

This kind of auto surprise for the story's sake does seem like railroading, if that is indeed what it says in the module.

I don't see it that way. The hobgoblins are already in combat. They are fighting. They can't be surprised by your or anyone else's attack at this point. You are essentially walking into an ongoing fight.

A more clear example of this situation would be your group noticing plumes of smoke from a village up ahead. You dash to see what's going on, and see orcs raiding a village. At that point you roll initiative to join the villagers against the orcs, but the fight is ongoing, so you wouldn't get any surprise bonuses.

The bar fight is similar, except there is no time in between your taking note of the fight, and entering the fray. In the village example, the fight begins with the orcs attacking the village, and you enter the fight when you get there. In the bar fight, the fight begins with the 4 hobgoblins bursting through the door and attacking some bar patrons. You enter the fight after that.

Now if the target of the ambush wasn't some bar patrons, but your party, then the right thing to do would be to give your characters perception checks (or use passive perception) to react to the ambush quicker. But as it stands, the initial attack does not affect the players, it is part of the story, as such, no rolls are needed.